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Hello everyone. I seem to be talking about this more and more these days, which makes me so happy. So hope this helps. About 15 years ago, I stumbled into the world of watch collecting and not to long after, watchmaking. After discovering George Daniels, I never looked back. Now, being in Canada, I quickly found out how hard it is to become a watchmaker with only one school in the country and me no where near it and unable to attend. So I decided to train myself. 15 years later, I am on my way. So I quickly learnt that reading as much as possible was better first, the reason being I could only diagnose what was wrong with a watch, based I what I knew. I cleaned a watch and it was bad in the timegrapher, back again to read, and back again to fix, a frustrating cycle.When I started read more and more I realized there are things I was doing that seemed ok but was bad for the future of the watch, like over oiling for example, or what I thought was a clean movement really was not, these things affect service intervals. Over 20 books and with the help of other watchmakers, here I am. So if there is anything I can help with please ask, and if you have the determination to do it ,you can. But there are lots of things involved. Two big things I learnt from others, being your own quality control and maintaining standards.

I bought a UV torch and used it to find a tiny cap jewel. It does work ! I first search for parts with a torch, then magnet. If no luck, I clean the dust chamber on the Dyson, set it to max, and vac everything and everywhere. I empty the bin contents on to a sheet of white paper, and use the magnet.

Welcome to the forum, enjoy.. Find attached a pic of the basic watch wheel identification..

now you just need to make a jewel magnet Visa and MasterCard make those, they seem to collect jewels for Mrs W without any problems

I would use oil on every other tooth of the escape wheel it will attach to the pins of the pallets. I know there is hardly any oil sink for the pallet pivots so can only oil the pivots direct.

@brunomartins did you check this? There are even smartphone apps that use the compass in your phone to check for magnetism. And a cheap blue demagnetizer will cost only 10-15 USD/EUR. While the pictures do indeed suggest a bent hairspring, you should FIRST eliminate magnetism as a possible source of the issue. Bending a hairspring for the first time is more likely to make it worse...I'm taking from (bad) experience.

I have a website that lists parts So you can look up Part numbers and cross references and a PDF. http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=LON_23ZS Is worth a try but looks like it's out of stock http://www.julesborel.com/s.nl/it.A/id.168388/.f But the fact that it once was in stock means that it may exist somewhere on the planet if you can find it 4408_Longines 23Z,23ZS,23ZD,23ZSD.pdf

Really? The army taught me... do/use anything you want... as long as nobody finds out.

@Neverenoughwatches Well, since rubies (synthetic and real) fluoresce under a black light, maybe turn out all the lights, and break out your black light (and maybe some gummies)...

My tuppence on this, always learn the basic principles, first by reading/watching then going practical. Once you start doing the practical you will start to learn what you need to know. You then go back to the written and you then understand more, the loop continues. tom

Hello all. Away for the next 12 nights, poor or non existant WiFi. So if I'm not active, I'm not dead. Hehe.

One of the amusements I have is if you look at the address of the school at the time I was there I don't believe it actually was in Neuchâtel. For those not familiar with wostep until it found a permanent home in the city of Neuchâtel it rented various locations. So at the time I was there it was up the hill by a fair distance. Then the apartment building that several of us stayed at was in walking distance a little farther up and I definitely know it did not have a Neuchâtel address just can't quite remember what it is right now. But still I have really fond memories of Neuchâtel. Although it would've been nice if they didn't embrace how well they speak French. Apparently they were very famous for how well they speak French. In the apartment I was in the student across the way he could not speak a word of English as he came from the French part of Canada. Apparently he was here to perfect his French to be very very perfect.

Just a quick update. I still feel like a beginner. Slow learning but hopefully reasonably thorough. State of play. Working watches. Left to right. First two. Battery changes. Seiko 6309. Full service and parts. Sekonda 2428. Full service Sekonda 2427. Full service Sekonda 2427. Full service (my favourite) I do have many others that are work in progress Seiko's. 6119. 6309. 6319. 7009. 7S26 Citizen 8200 3 Enicar with differnet movements. St69. 2 x AR167 I watches of Switzerland Seafarer. Ross

Thanks ross, i've ordered the g1200 microscope you have, it's a good price on banggood it'll take a couple of weeks to arrive, i watched your video and a couple of other reviews on youtube, the g1200 microscope looks to be more than adequate for my needs at this stage, examining parts and jewels it may even help me sort an hairspring out that i haven't been able to do with just a loupe.

When you get one, let me know. I'll tell you when to hold yours up and I'll let mine go, then brace yourself for impact

That's a bummer, very sorry to hear that. If it's indeed (and only) the CAP JEWEL that is broken (that should be integrated in the small, round metal plate, screwed onto the mainplate), then you are lucky that @Lotus has found some spectacularly cheap eBay options for you. It's also good that both sellers mention that the balance swings freely: that means that the cap jewel should be ok. And ALSO, it should mean that the balance and especially the BALANCE STAFF are ok. Why is the latter important? Well, the jewels are much harder that the balance staff pivots.... so if your jewel cracked, there's a good chance that your balance staff is also damaged. Getting these replacement movements, should therefore help you in both cases. Hahahaha

Oh cool. Let me know if you're ever in Geneva. Would be cool to meet you for a coffee. PS: sorry everyone for hijacking the thread there... will stop it now.

Yes, you might be able to save the Seamaster (depends just how corroded it is), but you will almost certainly doom it if you jump right in on that one.

Neverenoughwatches and mikepilk Thank you for the information about the UV torch. Ordered one.

I second that approach. I worked on 2-3 non-runners at first. While useful, I spent countless hours on things that you won't do in 95% of regular servicing work (e.g. trying to bend a hairspring into shape). So the time I spent wasn't directed towards the things I needed to learn at the beginning. What really boasted my learning curve was working with a (badly) running movement. That really changed my trajectory. You can get running watches for little money. E.g. Soviet watches.

So far we've proved that something harder than a jewel can scratch a jewel, yippee. I await the proof that a bit of paper can.

Hello and welcome. Yes, third wheel.

APP is a definite problem. Often times we will be trying to solve imaginary problems because apps typically don't work very well although they do seem to work better if you have an external pickup designed for watches. Then yes the hairspring is definitely having an issue.

Yes a very controversy over thing. With literally millions of worthless watches it really wouldn't matter but with some of those not being worthless yes that will upset people I remember seeing on another discussion group somebody saw a piece of jewelry made out of a pocket watch dial that he had been looking for for some time I don't think anybody died that day but the person was very unhappy. So the unfortunate problem of the assumption that the watches are worthless and no one should care but sometimes we care. Then of course there clock movements a lot of these are just swapped when people get there clock service because are so cheap and in real life those clocks can all be cannibalized and made into really interesting art projects just fine. But still if you're a watch collecting group ask them what they think about steam punk and step back. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steampunk Then the zenith yes if they had a case is probably worth something conceivably even the movement could be worth something on eBay although it is missing one plate screw. Oh and of course this does bring up the other itsy-bitsy problem with so many watches out there if you're going to a sizable box of them you could obviously pick out things by this looks like it should be worth something maybe but all kinds of obscure things are likely to slither by because you just don't know what it is. If you looked at the movement should bill a tell what was something decent but there are stuff out that is valuable but still will look like garbage because it's limited quantity or something. So certain degree it becomes impossible to identify everything. Then the Elgin watch becomes interesting because I can use it for training purposes today and it's just interesting. When the American watch companies were changing towards the end of their life one of the things they did was imported watches. Elgin even had their own factory in Switzerland. But eventually companies like Elgin technically still exist but all that exists is the name. So your watch is a Swiss made with the name Elgin on it. It's possible if we knew exactly what was made as possible it actually was imported by the Elgin watch company towards the end but most the time it is after that doesn't really matter though as we can see something else of interest so end up with all kinds of peculiar problems in watch repair like who made this watch? Yes I just answered the question it was made by Elgin because that's the name on the dial in the name on the back but what if you want to purchase parts. Let's easy I circled something typically but not always under the balance wheel will be a symbol and number. Other times it can be found on the dial side of the movement and other times we have to do detective work to figure out what it is. But here is easy we get a number is symbol Oh and by the way outstanding picture a lot of times were asking for stuff like this it takes a while to convince somebody actually give us what we need to figure out what they have. So consider all of this of introduction into finding parts because I'm not going cover every single little thing. So number and a symbol we can look at a book we can find out what the symbol means unless of course we already knew. Now armed with a name and a number we go to a very useful website. You want to take some time to study the page here seemingly simple enough but you can also enter in stuff pay attention to you need letters in the beginning of whatever you enter in or you will not get which you want. Sometimes people end up with a part number and then they figure out the reason they couldn't find it originally was convicted and enter the right letters etc. but the easy way to get what we want is we know it's a font it's in the first category. http://cgi.julesborel.com/ Then you'll eventually end up here http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=FF_909 Now we get to the really interesting things the link above we get a listing of parts that may be available if it's in pink is not available at least it's not supposed to be available sometimes it may still be available depending upon where you live in the planet there may be physical material houses if you cultivate friendships with them you can just call them up email or whatever it asked do you have this part and they might actually have the part. Not everything is listed on line cousins if you look at the description on their website of how they performed is only online but other companies even those in the US are online if you read the fine print and it says you need a part call them they might have it. So basically get a list of parts but you click on the part and find out what else it is in. Oftentimes watch companies will use similar or the same part in a variety of watches or other people will purchase the movement and market with they are part number is another words this is a something and it will use the same parts it does not necessarily mean that it is the same watch it just means a particular part is found in these watches. For instance let's pick an interesting part like the pallet fork arbor. Yes that's a part that pivots like the fall off limit on quite a regular basis because a really really really tiny. Typically people would just replace the pallet fork as it's the easiest way to do it but the arbors are cheap except your arbors discontinued? For which right now I find that quite hysterically funny? Yes sometimes I can have a weird sense a humor but what do I know that you do not and probably the rest the people in the group did not know about pallet fork arbors it's a pretty standard generic component and what exactly is this one used in? The end up with two separate numbers usually one of the numbers is what I call a bestfit number and the other number may be the factory number. Then you get a description because it is a pallet fork arbor that she give you a description of what it is. Which becomes interesting because if you are a pallet fork arbor assortments yes the used to make those at one time you might actually already have one of these. Not that you have the tools to replace one but just saying it might exist. Then you see the list of watches the first three letters represents the company who has that in their watch. You'll notice because a pallet fork arbor is pretty generic it's a really really big long list. I guess it also tells you that people probably don't replace the arbors they just replace the pallet fork which is why the arbor's been discontinued.Then amusing I go down the list far enough Rolex even use this pallet fork arbor which is why find it amusing that it's been discontinued. http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=[^}D_Ds Other things amusement when were here to separate mainsprings are listed which are basically identical. The first one appears to be specifically for this watch in other words this was probably packaged by them and these the watches that goes in. But since both mainsprings should be identical the second link should be identical the first but look at how many watches use that mainspring?I'm of the make you go find a link but when you get there you'll find these numbers MSS-WA33 That's your mainspring number + chicken take that the eBay's messy if you drop off the first three letters and you might find it . Then we get the size of the spring MAINSPRING 1.20-.105-320 10. Then if you're ordering from cousins and possibly other people you get this mainspring number it's a very popular company for mainspring GR 2936-X. This is your quick crash course in finding parts which typically works much much better for relatively modern watches.

Wet wet and and dry just gjves a finer finish, just tends to float the removed particles, like oil or water used to lubricate a sharpening stone. I assume the scratches will just be finer. It was more about finding out how tough a jewel is. The real purpose of the experiment when finished is to see if ordinary paper scratches a jewel as it has been suggested. Or if there was another cause for the scratches found.

I've just thread this entire thread with interest. Maybe it would be worth repeating your test but with the wet'n'dry paper "Wet"

I also have one of these, its a little off target and on my to-do list to disassemble and tweak.

Before you take the hairspring off the balance, try this. Use a clean oiler and gently push the hairspring outwards against the boot of the regulator as shown. Most of the time, impact to the watch causes the hairspring to distort at the fixed points. ie. the regulator or the hairspring stud. Yours seem to have flexed at the regulator. Push gently and see if the coils open up at the bunched up area.

https://www.apexmagnets.com/magnets/4-x-2-disc-huge-neodymium-magnet Thats if you can lift the damn thing.

Sounds fun, the sweets bit i mean

Funny you mention it, I did win the lottery to some extent. I guess I need to back up a bit and describe how I got the movements. My mother-in-law collected a bunch of watches to use in art projects. She scraped a bunch in the past for this purpose so I can only shudder thinking of what she may have ruined. But anyway, I went through the whole pile a few months ago because I started looking through them one day and almost immediately found a really nice Elgin wristwatch. I excitedly sorted through everything taking out all of the mechanical stuff. Most of the pile was cheap fashion quartz stuff. Then I sorted runners and non-runners. I have a pretty good idea of the watch world and what’s worth what so I’m not naively trashing valuable movements. For example, one of the non-runners in that pile is this Movado Zenith which may be worth a few bucks to someone. If the watch was complete and the dial not in such poor condition it would be worth a lot more. This Elgin was my real score that I’m very excited about though. I found it in running condition, although losing time, and all functions working properly. It was very scratched up but I polished the crystal and looks like new now . Super cool bright orange seconds hand and beautiful patina on the tritium lume. The watch is currently with my watchmaker for service and hopefully I’ll have it back within a month or so. Sure it’s not a pre-moon Speedmaster or anything but I’m very excited about adding a cool watch to the collection. I’m definitely just trying to have some fun and learn more about watches along the way. I don’t have much free time so I’ll be going at a nice slow pace. I’ve been avoiding those automatics because of the additional complication. Now I’m looking forward to getting started on this practice movement!

Hi, this is the tool.

If there are manufacturing residues in paper I doubt there are any hard enough to abrade sapphire. If there were a few particles equal to sapphire in hardness, even in some relatively high concentration, it would take some effort to get it to scratch. Calcium carbonate is a common additive, which is abrasive enough to dull steel (why your mom would yell at you for cutting paper with her fabric scissors), but nowhere near hard enough to hurt sapphire. Calcium carbonate= 3 Mohs scale, sapphire 9, diamond 10. I have made hole and other jewels from scratch, using diamond, and it's a tedious process. I know that diamonds are cut and faceted using diamond, and it's a very tedious process. That aluminum oxide causes scratches on sapphire is no surprise... but man, I would hate to have to make a jewel using it! Lens paper is especially free of anything abrasive, and even then there's a less-is-more approach to cleaning lenses. Glass averages around 6 Mohs scale, so harder than calcium carbonate, but that scale is practically logarithmic, so it's a lot harder. I have used a lot of really old cameras and scratches on the lenses wasn't really an issue (degradation of cement or propagation of fungus, yes), but scratches on lens coatings is a very real issue. If you want to get into really hairy territory check out the process to clean a precision front surface mirror, yikes!

This is usually caused by a distorted hairspring. The sudden shock can flex the hairspring until it picks up a bend. If you observe the hairspring at rest, you may be able to see it bunch up more on one side. If you have never done hairspring work before, this can be a harrowing experience. I would advise you to practise on a scrap movement first, until you have gained enough experience before working on your own watch. BTW, what movement are you working on. And if possible, could you post some high magnification photos of your balance at rest.

Usually the stem provided with the movement is some overlength ready to be cut to suit. Unless the case is huge with a thick case ring to hold the movement. Completely guessing here, making up a watch is not something I've got into or am interested in really. Good practice waggy, if you can cut once and file once then you are frequent stem changer That is something i would do if the settings still weren't right as long as the gasket still sealed. The fault would be too much of the stem taken up in the stem tube / crown depth.

I encountered a similar situation, with a NH35 movement and aftermarket NH35 case, basically the tube on the case is too long, meaning that once the crown finishes unscrewing you are already in the date change 'click' and have skipped the winding 'click'. I used a spare stem and shaved a fraction of a mm away trying again and again. Now the watch in question JUST remains in the winding position once unscrewed. I don't think there is an easy answer, you end up in a catch 22 situation if you lengthen the stem, as you would now be able to wind it up, but you would not be able to screw it down as it would be too long. I did consider filing a mm or two off the tube length, but like I said I just got it to work without having to go down that road (thankfully), and I'm not sure if that would have created more issue than it solved? Sorry I don't have a solution, but I feel your frustration.

So to have the date set and winding fuction to work the crown did not screw down fully ? So I'm assuming at this stage you had not cut the stem and tried it as it came ? So then you cut the stem and now it is too short for the date set and winding to engage before wanting to screw back down ? Can i ask how you cut the stem ? Was it in one go ? Two goes ? Easy to cut it short when gauging how much to lob off it. Theres not a great deal to play with, you want to be aiming for everything working with just maybe a thread or two left for the crown to hit home. Then gradually reduce the stem all the while checking the functions. Bit of a ball ache as the crown will have to be on and off a few times as you reduce. Slowly slowly catch your monkey. With practise gauging it get easier. Of course the screwdown stem tube might be too long but if the crown takes it all up then it should be ok. Reducing the tube maybe not a great solution as it may well affect the water-resistant seal. I would guess that you've just cut the stem a little to short.

Assuming the stem is the correct one and works with the movement out of the case, is the case to large? If so you may need a stem extender.

@Aroxx welcome to the addiction, as Yoda said "once you start down the dark side forever will it....". If I may offer some unsolicited advice, if I was starting out again I would start with a cheap runner to work on, this way, if it doesn't work at the end of the repair at least you know it was something you did. I see the logic in starting with a non-runner, as you have nothing to loose if you junk it, but you will never know if it was possible to repair it in the first place if you can't get it running. The guys on here will help you out with any questions you have, as someone will have had the same issue you are seeing. Good luck and welcome again!

Third time was the charm. The Powermatic 80 (ETA C07.661) out of the box timing results were impressive; from 0 to -2 in 4 positions, but the beat error was a little odd as it ranged from 0.4 to 1.1ms. After my first day of wearing 24 hours later it was -2 seconds, I'll take that.

When I got into watchmaking, I checked out every book my library had on it. I already had serviced several cameras (thanks to a book). I got a set of screwdrivers and some Dumont #3 tweezers, and went to town on every cheap watch I could find. Carpeted work area, no idea you could buy parts, learned how to find cap jewels in shag carpet. 2 and some years later a graduate from watchmaking school, couple years after that working in Switzerland, been here 20+ years. Be careful what you wish for! But the old books, DeCarle, Fried, Gazeley*, good stuff. YT also, but a lot of bad practices. If you want to pay your rent off watches, go to school. Want to do it as a hobby, stick with YT and this forum. There are a bunch of very clever folks in these parts. *Gazeley has so much info in his book it's nuts. I swear Daniels copped 30% of his writing from him. Deep watchmaking.

Thanks WatchMaker! Perhaps I will contact Edox to see if they might respond. My watch is 100% identical to the one in the photos, but it is not the watch listed for sale on Chrono24. I used the photos on Chrono24 for expediency and perhaps should have provided credit or asked permission. My watch has no history available so I have no idea if/when servicing was ever performed.