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Looking at your teardown picture, you can see that you get quite a lot of "bits for your buck" with these Chinese automatics, and for the most part, components are somewhat interchangeable between different variants. I picked up a couple of scrap movements as I need a balance for one of my 404 club candidates. Two scrap Chinese automatics with what appears to be good balances cost a whole £2.99p plus shipping. One is skeletonized, the other is just very basic finishing. The dials are pot ugly, but I didn't buy them for their looks. They both have a full set of hands. Not very interesting or attractive ones, but hands, none the less. If I get a working balance, I'll be happy. The chances are that they will both run, but even if they are both toast, for that money, I'm hardly going to complain.

Gentlemen, Just to be clear. I studied how a timepiece works and how you can detect and repair malfunctions. For example, I followed, among others, the full training with Mark Lovick. So normally I can search for errors in a very structured way and then fix them. But you encounter situations where knowledge/experience is insufficient. Then it is very nice to consult and learn from forums like this. In the meantime I checked the Omega 601 for 6 days now. The first time it runs for 38 hours, afther the secon full wind its runs for 46 hours and after the third full wind it runs for 48 hours. Perhaps I was to impatient after the service (new mainspring). But I want to thank you all very much for the tips and advice. Gr. Hans

I have one and I keep violating the First Rule of Holes. I'm one good date ring away from owning a genuine running Frankenseiko...

The case at least is,

one of the problems with watch repair tools are that may be some of them should be easy but we also end up with lots of tools acquired from other fields making things even more interesting. Often times at our local watch group meetings we will have missed retools because everybody is missed retools they might seem obvious to one person but they may not seem obvious to another. Oh and then there's the other reference to the pros. A lot of people who have gone to the watch school have never seen the vast majority of specialized tools because they just don't see them in school. for instance where I work we used to have a head watchmaker at least the title on paper was that. Then locally we had a chronograph course so he volunteered to help because he knew how to do chronographs. Amusingly he learned about a tool that he had never seen before. oh and I'm feeling lazy and don't want to take pictures right now unhelpful answer because I don't feel like being helpful at this instant time and I don't feel like taking pictures let's see if I can scan something really fast. Yes if you of a flatbed scanner can scan things sometimes with a depth of field sometimes not but if you're really lazy get watch photos really fast if you flatbed scanner or in this case mystery tool picture the last time I looked up this tool for technical information was I basically couldn't find anything which tells you that it probably wasn't really that useful even though it does have a purpose and somebody went to a lot of trouble to make this but we just typically don't see a lot of them at all. We do have clues very unhelpful clues I didn't see them in your images on the corner of mine is the initials HR I assume that at one time this was a company sold tools. There's another tool catalog that I have lurking but the last time I went looking for it I couldn't find it because I suspect this would be at that particular catalog. Then did you notice the end of your tool it says star which is of course a Swiss tool something I'm not sure if they manufactured but they sold tools. So how hard could it be to find a mystery tool that we know is made by star? so I would be curious as to whether yours says star on the end often times with Swiss tools especially those sold by a company who likes yellow golden color boxes they typically used to purchase their tools which is why a lot of times you find tools being sold by several companies because they didn't have exclusive rights to them. I'm kinda hoping a few more people make wild guesses as to what this is for before I tell you what it actually is for and then I have to go find something in the bench to show what it actually is used for fortunately when is looking for something yesterday I found a whole container of the items that this is used with now if I just remember which drawer that was

the problem with armchair reading is Swatch group doesn't share any information of those outside of the group. This leads to lots of speculation. if we look at the last little bit of what I quoted above you will pass and that is one of the most important lessons to learn in watch repair if you don't feel good about something pass on it. often times we see newbies jumping in and working on things they shouldn't and that doesn't always end well basically for the rest of the quote that could apply to any watch with timing screws and/or timing weights. Like for instance Rolex doesn't have a regulator typically you have to adjust the timing weights and can individuals do it sure they can. They just need a timing machine and the special tool for the shape of the weights on the balance rim.. What about American pocket watches for instance they come with timing screws and based on the timing I see a lot of people play with those the balance wheels are out of poise he just put them back in poise so can things like this be done by us yes but you do have to know what you're doing.. Of course other question is can you regulate this watch with those timing weights? on discussion groups like this we always like to have model numbers makes it easier to look up things so I'm guessing we have this watch Tissot Powermatic 80.111 CT C07.111 . then the particular watch in this discussion has a COSC certification. with the timekeeping of the problem with this is the timekeeping is outside of even the normal non-chronometer specification for this movement I would be really curious if somebody could give me the exact place where it says you have to have a factory laser to regulate this. the reason why normal watchmakers will touch this is it's a Swatch group watch. Why work on a watch that you would have no spare parts know the technical literature no help word know would appear a lot why work on something that just isn't what you should be working on. It's the problem buying watch movements that come from companies do not supply any technical information at all unless you have access to Swatch group documentation. Now back to regulation non-chronometer version because it's basically exactly the same except if you really wanted a brand-new chronometer certificate they would have to be sent away and there's a whole procedure for that. So let's look at what about the non-chronometer grade can it be regulated at all not based on this discussion but what about what to Swatch group really have to say about this oh and I didn't say information was never available I just said you would have to have access to Swatch group or know somebody who is access to Swatch group then information can be available. But normally wherever you have access to Swatch group nobody's going to give you a clue as to how the heck they do that as you would never want to risk your source. But maybe we can find something if we are really resourceful not finding the exact PDF I want but let's go with this one it has lots of interesting information. Notice the parts most of the parts are generic to a specific watch in other words are available but notice the parts that are not available that is why no one in their right mind is working on watches should undertake doing one of these unless you have access this watch parts otherwise you have an unhappy customer. oh look up above level of accuracy except in the case of the watch in his discussion at least one of them and new adjustment for the balance hairspring system is some sort of laser Star Wars weapon. Oh and note that this technical document is slightly out-of-date because I think they will probably take some of the other newer witschi timing machines that are out there now but you'll notice I'm not seeing the lasers where are they. Also the reference to the chronometer certified basically they have to go back to the factory because it would have to go out for certification. then notice the timing a specification and the watch that's not keeping time these are not the chronometer specifications these of the normal specifications and the watch that's not keeping time is not even within the specifications in other words a defective watch for timekeeping purposes oh look a special tool that doesn't seem to have a laser oh and notice up above the escapement maintenance? This is why people in the field when they look at the synthetic escapement well you would be wise not to work on it and you do require special lubrication which is available out in the market at least the last time I looked then we get the other amusement yes there is a tool but is everyone as Swatch group using the fancy tool to hold the screwdriver? What about Rodo. Basically they're just supporting the balance zero distort anything and you're using an ordinary screwdrivers far as I can tell because it is no reference to the other special tool

de Carle goes into detail on adjusting pin pallets. Cliff Notes- cutting the pin pallet base and moving the pins…

I have one of these and really like it.

Hoping for a Smiths, we'll see.

I wouldn't say that was entirely unusual for these movements. The QA mission statement seems to be " if it runs, its good enough" in a lot of cases. I do have a couple that work almost perfectly in all positions, others, not so much. If the particular manufacturer of a movement (and there seem to be many manufacturers) made at least some basic effort, they will keep time. On the plus side, balance complete can be picked up for pennies, as indeed can entire scrap movements. They can be extremely frustrating to service though, due to the poor quality control. Some of them left the factory in a barely working state, with factory fitted fingerprints.

This one was part of a very profitable lot of ‘costume’ jewelry and two watches. From the pics I knew at least one of the strands of pearls was real and it turned out to be two strands with gold clasps. $$$ and a ladies gold longines I have yet to investigate.. …anyways, Mark L. posted a video of servicing a Chinese fakie movement so for fun and practice I gave this one a go… Notice the sticker remnants to hold the dial in place …a gear tumbled out when I opened the case. After cleanup and laying things out for assembly the top wheel on the setting lever was missing so the staking set made it right. Everything works but if I turn the winding stem- yes, it winds, if I turn the stem towards twelve the little date wheel becomes disengaged from the date ring… The punch line- it regulated DD in beat and zeroed but it was horrible in all the other positions- one to two minutes, fast and wobbly. Just for fun I cased it up and wore it to dinner three days ago, played golf and wore it around the house…and as I write it has maintained perfect sync with the sweep second on my phone clock…what are those manufacturers playing at? Kind of makes it hard to bin it…

Oh wow thanks! I was actually able to find the exact one I needed there. Perfect.

In the USA.

This

What a brilliant way of putting it Jack, we really are a community on here.

There's something wrong. You should be seeing much higher amplitude. Seiko are often known for lowish amplitude (220-240°), but Mitka shows one he's serviced with 283° amplitude. I don't know the lift angle, but he's got it set to 52°) https://workshop.mitka.co.uk/cgi-bin/library?action=show_photos&wat_id=46 Sometimes you can get a false reading when testing in the case. Does it look like 140°? Can you take a slow motion video with your phone?

The reason could be that the question was asked in "Lathes for Watchmakers / Mini Lathes & Jacot tools and all related". Nevertheless, thanks for your reply!

And if you are feeling a little masochistic, try a 17 or 21 jewel Timex. It's like a Swiss movement but using Timex philosophy.

you can start playing with your Timex watches but you really want something that more closely resembles the type of watches you going to work on and Timex is not going to be that. and I see I'm late to the party while Timex watches are collectible there are people that repair them not really recommended in this situation. Basically the same as everyone else's said yes learning curve like that boiler job of 30 years ago I bet you didn't just walk in off the street grab the toolbox and say I'm a master plumber you probably had some training. Were just trying to tell you not to start on your watch any more than you would tell somebody to grab some plumbing tools and start working on that boiler because no experience is needed. Section quite common that a lot of people think watch repair no experiences needed. Oh other little problems with watch repair technical sheets kind of exist sort of. Anything vintage was probably scan to PDF for parts identification. Typically we don't always get repair information. So when you're working on something different in strange it be nice to have the tech sheet which may actually exist but was never scan to PDF because somebody just scanned it for parts. But in the case of your citizen watch we have a little bit at least there's a drawing I was expecting pure parts only. I know someone who does YouTube videos and I was suggesting why not make a video of all the watches you can't fix right now because. Of course the answer was that would be a boring video nobody would want to see that. The other problem the videos are they do skip steps watch the steps if you know what they're working on a new look at what they're doing there are steps missing at least I hope there are steps missing because if they're not missing somebody is really screwing up here. rather than looking at all watches are the same I tend to think they're all different in a way. Definitely in the discussion group each watch should be its own question. I made the reference before learning to work on watches is similar to becoming a doctor. Doctors patients are all the same kind of but they're all different as our watches are all a little different even if they're similar. Then like a doctor were continuously practicing with each new patient and/or watch were getting better it's an ongoing learning experience. Especially with watches where there is such an incredible quantity of variations of things. Lots and lots and lots of variations sometimes kind of like walking in a field of pretty flowers with land mines. 487_citizen 6000, 6001, 6080, 6500, 6501.pdf

Just to add to my previous comments, if I had my time back I would start with cheap WORKING movements, I know this is counter intuative, but if you finish a resoration on an non-working movement and it still doesn't work, did you mess it up, or was it never going to work or??? At least if you start out with something that ticks when you get it and you restore it and it doesn't tick you know you did something wrong. After you get a few of these under your belt you can then tackle your non-runners and see if you can bring them back to life. Just some free advice - but like my friend says "if free advice was worth anything they would sell it" I like Seikos, and would recommend as they are bullet proof and can take a lot of abuse and keep ticking and there are lots of spares out there as well as youtubes showing how to refurb them. I have had good luck and service from these guys: https://speedtimerkollektion.com/shop/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=11&products_id=78256 Don't be put off by the NOT running statement, I think thye put this on everything just to cover themselves, about 3/4 of the Not running watches they send me run fine :)... again more free advice I have done a few, and like you say they can be fun, especially when you are feeling up for a challenge. Then on some sad lonely day when you are looking to punish yourself.... erm I mean challenge yourself... break out the timex!

Timexes are actually quite fun. The screws are under the dial. There are only 4 of them. If you daring enough to attempt taking the plates apart, I recommend unpinning the hairspring and removing the balance wheel first. The hairspring on Timexes are actually quite tough, unlike Russian and some vintage watches. Not your beginner's watch but I definitely recommend doing one just for experience. Who knows, you might actually get hooked.

@dadistic Here is the Timex M31 movement, only one screw to be seen and several rivets Don't mean to rag on Timex, or hijack this topic, but my point was that Timex are probably not the best type of movement to start out with - later on if you are up for a challenge then they are interesting to work on and love/hate their different approach to watchmaking.

I worked on a lot of Timex movements early on, they are not that difficult if you follow the Timex service instructions. Generally, you do not take them completely apart as you would other watches (although you can), but there are some things to be aware of. For instance, the dial tabs can be a problem, if they are flexed too much they can break. None of the Timex movements I have worked on were riveted, I don't know why people keep saying this. You can find service info in the document stash that I maintain, here is the link - https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B-IKHN7WFKiwY3JMMDJnMld2SE0?resourcekey=0-7myGNNAUiShb5ihA-o6PnA&usp=share_link Cheers!

I agree with @Waggy, not a movement to start on. I have mixed emotions about such movements, partly balk at the crudeness, partly admire that such a crude movement could run so well and be quite robust.

Just a heads up that Timex are very tough as they are not built to service, see typical Timex movement below: Parts are riveted instead of screwed, most watchmakers don't like playing with them and not a great choice to learn on.

As I say to my students, 'Just because it's on YouTube doesn't make it the truth!' @semmyroundelIf you're in or near London I teach watchmaking courses for complete beginners to the seasoned horologist. You might be interested to learn the correct way, rather than the steep learning curve of YouTube videos. Check out my website: https://www.jonthewatch.co.uk/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jonthewatch/

Hi. The problem watching videos is you only get the best bits not the cock ups or the mistakes these are all edited out, best use them as guide lines not as gospel. All watches are the same but different ways of achieving the the same result. There subtle changes between movements of the same family, So as Waggy points out there will be failures but in the process lessons learned. It’s a fascinating and frustrating hobby.

Looks like a 6001, see link here I just acquired a 6001 in a batch of watches - are you looking to refurbish it? As this has sentimental value I would advise you leave it on a shelf for now until you get a few wins under your belt with watches you aren't worried about junking. As your grandfather gifted this to you and your chances of junking it is high (given you are just starting out on your journey) I would wait until you are confident there will be no tears. Please accept this advice as well intended, I'm just trying to save you some heartache not wag my finger at you and insinuate that you can't handle it. Nobody is born a watchmaker and it took me over 20 wathces (and tears) until I finally started winning more than I was loosing - and I still have the occasional train wreck! If you want, and you are ready, I can wait and work on my 6001 at the same time you are working on yours - two heads are better than one!

It may be obvious but it tends to be a very long road to grasp that at least from learning on your own. Then often times even if you did take a class you still may not learn problem-solving. You might learn all the aspects of the watch How to adjust everything how everything works but not necessarily working on a watch that has a problem other than something introduced by your instructor. A lot of times when people start collecting they start collecting a running watches so putting a strap on a running watch makes logical sense. Not really. A lot of it's about timing if you started collecting watches that had been serviced with organic lubricants which do have outstanding properties over synthetics. Synthetics have a habit of just running away and not doing the job organics can get sticky stopping the watch. Those watches typically cleaning will fix the problem possibly a mainspring. This is why we have quite a few watches out there that just need cleaning.

Well, no. It is not the mainspring. You have to learn how to investigate such unexpected problems. Most important here is to open the back verry carefully so not to cause the movement to start working again without haveing oportunity to understand where the problem is. Then, You need to understand if the escape wheel is powered or not. If no momentum goes to the escape wheel, then balance will be able to oscillate several times from gentle shake, the pallet wil move from one side to another and the 'scape wheel will move a little forward and reverse, but this movement will be causet by the pallets and not by the train. In this case, the stopp is somewhere between the mainspring and he escape wheel. In some cases momentum may go to the 'scape wheel, but reduced and not enough for keeping the work of the escapement. Then shaking will make the movement work, but with small amplitude and may be it will stop again soon. And may be the amplitude will start to gain and after some time, it will rise to normal. There is another group of problems, that are connected with the escapement itself. For example: the balance seems blocked in position different than it's zero position, and even strong shake doesn't move it. Forcing the balance to zero position or taking it out and putting it on again unlocks the escapement and the movement starts running normally So You first task is to understand which group You have

I recently got one as they seemed so cheap, £16, and I'm surprised at how good the quality is. I also bought a screw extractor, as that seem cheap, about £13. I haven't used it yet, but the quality seems OK.

WIth the Bergeon 6016, you slide it under the wheel, then twist the handle, and the two blades tilt, effectively rising in height, bringing the wheel with it. I have one, and never seem to find a wheel the blades actually fit under. I use the Presto tool. Those work great, only gripe is it would be nice to have a stop, as on a tight wheel, when it lets go, sometimes it comes up quite violently occasionally bending the wheel. Always been able to straighten them though.