End Shake On New Balance Staff

[Legarm]

I have just followed Marks video on replacing a Balance Staff. All went great, fitted to check end shake and it was very tight.

I am assuming you adjust the jewel on the Balance cock and not at the roller end.

Not going to carry on with that until I'm sure.

Thanks for looking.

[Mark]

Is there any dimples on the main plate near the balance cock screw hole? If so then a previous repairer may have made an adjustment to the effective cock height using that method. If this is the case then have the dimples been smoothed down by any chance?

[Legarm]

Is there any dimples on the main plate near the balance cock screw hole? If so then a previous repairer may have made an adjustment to the effective cock height using that method. If this is the case then have the dimples been smoothed down by any chance?

 

Hmmmmmmm, not au fait with "that method". But I shall look for Dimples after my nice cup of tea and home baked bread with home made plum jam...... :)

[clockboy]

Hand a pocket watch with the same fault. When I stripped the watch there was a tiny slip of thick paper under the bridge. Without it the balance was too tight BUT with it, it ran great. I have read that when using this dodge the position of packings is important i.e packed at the rear tightens the balance and packed at the front lifts the bridge so loosens the balance.

Edited October 29, 2014 by clockboy

[Mark]

"That method" is not so uncommon with older movements.

 

Just looked through three movements on my bench I am working on and the third one had this done in the past:

 

 

You will notice in the hi-lighted portion that there are two dimples which have been created (using a graver or sharp screwdriver).

 

If these are done behind the screw hole (as in the picture) then it will effectively reduce the endshake. And it would increase the endshake if it is done in front of the screw hole (closer to the balance wheel).

 

I knew a watch repairer that would use paper to achieve the same result. Also you will find that some watch movements will have a metal shim between the cock and the mainplate - Sekonda used to do this.

[clockboy]

Is this what the Bergeon rounding tool is used for ?? 

[Legarm]

Right.... had a look at it and no dimples, or evidence of being filed down. This method does seem to me to be a bit of a, "Yee Haa" method.

I would of thought that raising or lowering a jewel would be the correct way to go. On saying that, I am, at present also working on a Russian movement, which has got a metal shim, which has been professionally made and is a perfect fit to the shape of the balance cock.

Is it not correct to raise or lower the jewels? In my case the jewelling is not of the shockproof type.

[Mark]

Is this what the Bergeon rounding tool is used for ?? 

 

Are you talking about Bergeon 5482?

 

If so then no. If we are talking about 1/100mm or 2/100mm reduction you will be working all day using that thing. It is useful when you reduce the pivot length using an arkansas stone - finish with the rounder if needed (using some diamantine mixed with oil in the cup end). 

[Mark]

Right.... had a look at it and no dimples, or evidence of being filed down. This method does seem to me to be a bit of a, "Yee Haa" method.

I would of thought that raising or lowering a jewel would be the correct way to go. On saying that, I am, at present also working on a Russian movement, which has got a metal shim, which has been professionally made and is a perfect fit to the shape of the balance cock.

Is it not correct to raise or lower the jewels? In my case the jewelling is not of the shockproof type.

 

How is the endstone mounted?

[Legarm]

How is the endstone mounted?

 

Fixed in a round plate with two tiny screws..............

[clockboy]

Yes it is the Bergeon 5482 I was looking at. 

Therefore I presume it is used to shape the end of a pivot/balance when being made.

So many failures I have lost count with this, but this tool might help.

[Mark]

Yes it is the Bergeon 5482 I was looking at. 

Therefore I presume it is used to shape the end of a pivot/balance when being made.

So many failures I have lost count with this, but this tool might help.

 

I personally didn't like it. It is very slow to use. Much prefer rounding using a Jacot.

 

Jacot: about 2.5seconds to round off a pivot (plus setup time).

This tool: after 20 minutes I just got the Jacot out :D

[Legarm]

Decided to go the "Shim" route, as twatting the plate seemed a bit wrong. Also I would think that the indentations, front or back, of the screw holes would cause the Balance Cock to be on an incline, maybe causing the jewel to be out of alignment vertically.

Anyway this is what I have done.............

 

Shim made from edge of tablet strip......

 

Cut out with scalpel....

 

Holes for screw posts.....

 

On the plate....

 

All done and running lovely.....   :)

[Mark]

Well done mate :)

[Legarm]

When I started this movement it was a right rust bucket, anything that could rust had nearly. the barrel was a mess and the keyless works were a homogeneous mass of rust. So after a couple of weeks of intermittent work it is now back working, just got to see the timing situation.

This was my first attempt at changing a balance staff, hence this topic, it has gone very well with the help I have received and I therefore thank you for your input.

This could only be done after studying Marks fantastic Vid's.

[Geo]

I'm well pleased for you, it's a great feeling when you are successful when into new territory. Keep up the good work.

[atimegoneby]

Nice work Legarm !   do you have a pic of the finished watch.    :thumbsu:

[Legarm]

Nice work Legarm !   do you have a pic of the finished watch.    :thumbsu:

 

Just the movement at the moment. Waiting for the right dial and case to come along.......

[bobm12]

Excellent work Legarm!

[anilv]

Ace....!

[jnash]

Right.... had a look at it and no dimples, or evidence of being filed down. This method does seem to me to be a bit of a, "Yee Haa" method.

I would of thought that raising or lowering a jewel would be the correct way to go. On saying that, I am, at present also working on a Russian movement, which has got a metal shim, which has been professionally made and is a perfect fit to the shape of the balance cock.

Is it not correct to raise or lower the jewels? In my case the jewelling is not of the shockproof type.

All the Russian watches I've tinkered with use shims.

When you get the dimples or scratches i always thought this was bad practice as the previous repairer hadn't got the correctly sized staff and modified the watch to the incorrect staff as opposed to the other way round... If that makes sense!

[atimegoneby]

All the Russian watches I've tinkered with use shims.

When you get the dimples or scratches i always thought this was bad practice as the previous repairer hadn't got the correctly sized staff and modified the watch to the incorrect staff as opposed to the other way round... If that makes sense!

 

I agree,

 

I've seen similar practice on larger engineering jobs,  eg ;  to tighten up a loose bearing track in a housing, etc,  I've always considered it to be a bit of an ''educated bodge''.

[Geo]

I agree,

 

I've seen similar practice on larger engineering jobs,  eg ;  to tighten up a loose bearing track in a housing, etc,  I've always considered it to be a bit of an ''educated bodge''.

Nothing educated about it!

[atimegoneby]

Nothing educated about it!

 

Very true !...    a bodge... is a bodge.... is a bodge.....  :thumbsd:

[Mark]

Yup - and its amazing how often you will see it on vintage movements and modern ones as well.

 

I suppose some customers would not want to pay for the amount of time a watch repairer would have to spend to do the job properly, so the quick and dirty approach is adopted.

 

The problem is - the next watch repairer who works on the watch, is the poor bugger who has to deal with it.