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Third wheel pinion removal

jdrichard
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jdrichard Distinguished Member

jdrichard

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I am repairing an old waltham PW and one of the leafs on the pinion has a tooth missing. I think i need to remove the pinion but not sure how.145c00eb8fb903adf2fa7a567f619950.jpg

Old Broken one.

1941a5f2fd9c6b3f5c9f1553722825fc.jpg

New Replacement One

 

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saswatch88 WRT Addict

saswatch88

Posted
Posted (edited)

best way is to knock it out using a staking set the same way you would remove a balance staff.

you can try and use a canon pinion/hand remover tool if you can get the lever under it. but you have to place the the wheel on a staking block  with smallest hole you can fit the top pivot in. but these are friction fit but these watches are old so some penetrating oil may be needed for this process.

if you have a spare wheel why not just replace the whole wheel? what size is the movement?

Edited by saswatch88
nickelsilver Distinguished Member

nickelsilver

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I agree with replacing the whole wheel (if it's the same). As for getting the wheel off, some wheels are friction fit to the pinion arbor, some have a hub which is friction fit to the arbor (think of the hub as part of the wheel), but the traditional way of attaching would be staked to the pinion leaves. Here the pinion is turned down a bit in diameter, and a rivet formed, the wheel is staked on, then riveted. The leaves bite into the wheel a bit and that along with the riveting makes a very secure hold.

It kind of looks like you have the latter. If you simply knock the pinion out there's a good chance of distorting the wheel, or enlarging the hole, or possibly breaking a pinion leaf. Best is to turn away some of the rivet before knocking it out. Then in the lathe, slightly chamfer the end of the leaves where they enter the wheel- you'll see that they are slightly bulged from being riveted before, and recut the rivet (don't shorten the seat length, just make the rivet "sharp" again). The little chamfer on the pinion leaves will help you get the wheel on concentrically- also you want to get the leaves in the slots already formed by the previous pinion. The seat length will be slightly shorter than original regardless, so you can also chamfer the hole in the wheel slightly so that the rivet has room to be staked over.

saswatch88 WRT Addict

saswatch88

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19 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

I agree with replacing the whole wheel (if it's the same). As for getting the wheel off, some wheels are friction fit to the pinion arbor, some have a hub which is friction fit to the arbor (think of the hub as part of the wheel), but the traditional way of attaching would be staked to the pinion leaves. Here the pinion is turned down a bit in diameter, and a rivet formed, the wheel is staked on, then riveted. The leaves bite into the wheel a bit and that along with the riveting makes a very secure hold.

It kind of looks like you have the latter. If you simply knock the pinion out there's a good chance of distorting the wheel, or enlarging the hole, or possibly breaking a pinion leaf. Best is to turn away some of the rivet before knocking it out. Then in the lathe, slightly chamfer the end of the leaves where they enter the wheel- you'll see that they are slightly bulged from being riveted before, and recut the rivet (don't shorten the seat length, just make the rivet "sharp" again). The little chamfer on the pinion leaves will help you get the wheel on concentrically- also you want to get the leaves in the slots already formed by the previous pinion. The seat length will be slightly shorter than original regardless, so you can also chamfer the hole in the wheel slightly so that the rivet has room to be staked over.

I agree with riveted pinions, they are risky to punch same as riveted staffs. but 3rd wheel is not riveted on these waltham pocket watch movements, only the center wheel is, i know because i work on these a lot, sometimes i even get some waltham/elgin that have loose pinions on a few occasions pinions have actually fallen out  of the wheel. and the leaves are friction fit to the pinion. so it should be able to come off without punching out the entire pinion. maybe he should try penetrating oil and try gently twisting it off before hitting up the stakes. i would like to know the size of the movement though i think 12s 18s may be riveted not sure but iam sure 6s and down isnt

Edited by saswatch88
jdrichard Distinguished Member

jdrichard

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I agree with riveted pinions, they are risky to punch same as riveted staffs. but 3rd wheel is not riveted on these waltham pocket watch movements, only the center wheel is, i know because i work on these a lot, sometimes i even get some waltham/elgin that have loose pinions on a few occasions pinions have actually fallen out  of the wheel. and the leaves are friction fit to the pinion. so it should be able to come off without punching out the entire pinion. maybe he should try penetrating oil and try gently twisting it off before hitting up the stakes. i would like to know the size of the movement though i think 12s 18s may be riveted not sure but iam sure 6s and down isnt

So, for the third wheel, I actually need to take a good pinion and replace the bad pinion on the original. The wheel on the original is ok. Is the pinion really part of the shaft as a single piece of metal. I know the center wheel had a safety pinion that screw off...but not sure I can actually remove the 3rd wheel pinion/gear.


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saswatch88 WRT Addict

saswatch88

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2 hours ago, jdrichard said:


So, for the third wheel, I actually need to take a good pinion and replace the bad pinion on the original. The wheel on the original is ok. Is the pinion really part of the shaft as a single piece of metal. I know the center wheel had a safety pinion that screw off...but not sure I can actually remove the 3rd wheel pinion/gear.


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you should be able to remove the pinion from the shaft, but it might be hard to friction fit the new one. so not sure whats better to remove pinion or entire shaft because normally i dont do this i just replace the wheel since i have a ton of spare parts. any reason why you cant just replace the whole wheel? i may have a spare if you dont have one

jdrichard Distinguished Member

jdrichard

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you should be able to remove the pinion from the shaft, but it might be hard to friction fit the new one. so not sure whats better to remove pinion or entire shaft because normally i dont do this i just replace the wheel since i have a ton of spare parts. any reason why you cant just replace the whole wheel? i may have a spare if you dont have one

One of the pinion leaf is broken. And the other gear shaft is too short.


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jdrichard Distinguished Member

jdrichard

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The pinion and arbor are one piece. Only the center pinion, on certain American calibers, was a separate piece.

So there is no robbing a single pinion. Could make one with my Lathe??


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nickelsilver Distinguished Member

nickelsilver

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So there is no robbing a single pinion. Could make one with my Lathe??


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Well, you may be able to graft the good wheel on the good pinion.

To make a pinion is no small feat, first of all you need a milling attachment and a way to divide, then you need the appropriate cutter or the means to make one.
saswatch88 WRT Addict

saswatch88

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

The pinion and arbor are one piece. Only the center pinion, on certain American calibers, was a separate piece.

they look like to pieces in he picture, doesnt look like the pinion was machined out of the same stock as the shaft, i know have had few movements that where loose or maybe it was the whole shaft that was loose and just thought it was the pinion, and yes the center wheel pinion is 100% friction fit that i know for sure, but only on 3/0s and up i believe

JD you can buy a spare movement very cheap on ebay, prob less than $10, just save yourself the headache and get a new wheel man!

Edited by saswatch88
jdrichard Distinguished Member

jdrichard

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I could cut out the pinion, drill a hole in it and friction fit it to the shaft. This would mean removing the old pinion by graving it on my lathe

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jdrichard Distinguished Member

jdrichard

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Update: Put original 3rd wheel in Lathe and graved down the pinion leaves and arbor down to an acceptable diameter.4dbf46d71830211bdd9753d3716b40cd.jpg
Next plan is to get the sacrifice pinion on its arbor/shaft and drill a hole in it the same diameter as the one I cleaned up.


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jdrichard Distinguished Member

jdrichard

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wow nice job! see iam lazy i would have just replaced the wheel, plus i dont have a lathe so that too

Funny. I like the challenge, plus it would cost 20 bucks for the new part and my labour is free.


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AP1875 WRT Addict

AP1875

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Wow that was really great to watch, excellent job.. Is the watch back together now? Which lathe do you have if you don't mind me asking?

jdrichard Distinguished Member

jdrichard

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Wow that was really great to watch, excellent job.. Is the watch back together now? Which lathe do you have if you don't mind me asking?

The watch will be together today for a test, then I still need to strip and clean it. I have 5 lathes with countershafts, on Borel Stands and 5 conventional desk mount. All vintage. The Lathe I used was a Boley and Lienen.75a95480f5b3f3b67586d15a75de8940.jpgb720e7e7242118dbfcbfd27cd64aadee.jpg
With a collet holding Micrometer tailstock.


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jdrichard Distinguished Member

jdrichard

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I also had to make a new Balance Staff for this watch and replace the upper balance cock Jewel. This was a lot of work, but for a friend of course.


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jdrichard Distinguished Member

jdrichard

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Wow that was really great to watch, excellent job.. Is the watch back together now? Which lathe do you have if you don't mind me asking?

37b4364a51b65678ba4cb87b5692188b.jpgfd2827bebd4549b0a88c004dbced8003.jpge15c34ec7b435c043891af506e5aadbe.jpg29a46d9c70f8663f9bdd5345a338eaca.jpg8b5646330e71da06e3423cf40030195d.jpg967a7793abdcb3f45c4d5cf7d51eec4c.jpg
All done:
Done.
1) Made New Balance Staff
2) replace center wheel
3) made/replaced 3rd Wheel pinion
4) Replaced Balance Cock Top Jewel
5) Cleaned and reassembled.



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  • 1 month later...
jdrichard Distinguished Member

jdrichard

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Making a video at the moment, however, the transplant was successful.64d742dda163b682f3021b89823920b1.jpg&key=2efcad752914d1289b48870b4db8d4cb10114ead50497c7f9a918abb4fd9085d97fe9dcd9f0d53397882e6a996370e1b.jpg&key=6022d8de356b1d40a86eb882de568a6666c20365e1a27c618579da8e1a679eeddb8cf869790f1faa09dd0e9a78a383f7.jpg&key=64d5f7ed571a2f951d84153bfdfcd8327057f41d77c8c63f10e2cec63122c23b4b94dbfc59e8a2744ff2561358862d79.jpg&key=857ade43ca9dabeb76c9890f5003e91ea49210c5881831138f578c1d0f67ca8ca13f736733afd5827ab78da9c1125d12.jpg&key=75445574cc45c1e65185006459e8c32c648fffa61a637cf787739da184771015


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So after all this work, I had to re-glue the pinion back on as the pressure from the center wheel caused to to break the glue seal. I was successful the second time by roughing up the wheel a bit, where the pinion touches is, so there would be more material for the glue to grab. Next time, however I will make sure I get a friction fit and don’t take so much material off.


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