Out Of Beat & Hairspring Not Level?

[64americandeluxe]

I bought an Elgin wristwatch online with an FHF 96 movement as one of my first movements to disassemble and learn how to clean and reassemble.  When I bought the movement it was not working and the stem was broken off.  I disassembled the movement, cleaned it, replaced the stem and it is now working, albeit 4 minutes slow in 24 hours.  I have two things that I believe need attention and would like people's input on...

 

1)  The hairspring does not lie flat (parallel to the balance wheel).  Have a look:

Firstly, I assume this needs to be corrected, but how is this done?

 

2)  I am pretty sure the watch is out of beat after watching Mark's video "Aligning the Hairspring on the Balance" and reading a chapter in Henry B. Fried's book.  I can't see if the pallet fork is midway between the banking pins or the impulse jewel, despite a 10X hand lens and a USB microscope.  However, if I read Henry's book correctly, and follow his diagram on the position of the exit pallet on the escape wheel, it appears that my watch is out of beat.  Can you confirm for me?  Have a look:

If both conditions need correcting, I would think that I should begin by levelling the hairspring and then putting it back in beat.  Am I way off here?

Thanks in advance for your time!

Roger

Edited December 1, 2014 by 64americandeluxe

[64americandeluxe]

Could the above conditions also contribute to losing 4 minutes per day?

Thanks again!

Roger

Edited December 1, 2014 by 64americandeluxe

[clockboy]

First of the hairspring needs attention Marks vids on hairsprings are excellent and are good start as to what is required. Secondly to get a watch in beat you really need a timing machine for the fine tune. A few weeks ago serviced non running Seiko (7005A) and when put on the timing machine was givven a surprise to the result. However after the panic I adjusted the beat and well see below. I have attached pics. 

 

BEFORE

 

AFTER

Edited December 1, 2014 by clockboy

[anilv]

Dear Roger,

 

Get the hairspring flat first then get the coils centered. Then figure out getting it in beat.

 

Anil

[daz]

The hairspring looks like it is catching so could effect timekeeping and given a change of position could possibly stop the watch, so levelling the hairspring is a must but this can be a bit daunting as they are so fragile. If the watch is out of beat this can be sorted and Timing machines are a great piece of kit that will make this task a lot easier but you would have to get the hairspring levelled off first ( is it me or does the Balance pivot look like it's bent or not centred?? It could be the way I am looking at it [emoji1])

Hope it all goes well for you

Darren

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[64americandeluxe]

Thanks for the advice everyone.  I will attempt the leveling of the hairspring first, as you all suggested (I will be re-viewing Mark's video on this process and reading literature I have before attempting).  I also have some scrap hairsprings I will try this on first.  I'll worry about timing/out of beat issue once the hairspring is level.  Daz, I am not certain about the balance pivot.  I'll have to examine it closely to see if the pivot is bent.

Thank you!

Roger

[Blacklab]

Might be easier to try and find a new complete balance.

[Geo]

Might be easier to try and find a new complete balance.

Not as much fun though! :-)

[64americandeluxe]

I bought the watch as a learning tool so I will try my hand at it.

[64americandeluxe]

Update: I used the balance assembly from my donor movement (the hairspring on this one was nice and flat) and installed it on this FHF 96 movement.  The watch seems to be running well (I am not finished with it in terms of final details and regulation) but I have put it aside to focus on the original, out of flat hairspring. I would like to investigate what's causing the original hairspring to not sit flat (I presume it may be that the hairspring was not pinned to the collet correctly).

 

This will be first attempt at work on a balance assembly/hairspring and I am pretty excited and cautious about learning this aspect of watchmaking :biggrin: .  I am unclear on how to disengage the hairspring from the regulator.  In one of Mark's video, he turned the brass section with a screwdriver (via a slot) but I am not sure if mine disengages in the same manner.  Before I ruin anything, I thought I would ask for help.  Do I turn the portion the arrow is pointing to?  Here's a picture of my balance assembly...

Thanks in advance!

Roger

[64americandeluxe]

I just took another look at it - will the hairspring come out of the regulator by simply sliding it up?  

Roger

[bobm12]

Hi Roger,

 

On the balance cock there is a screw that is holding one end of the spring. Once this end is freed, you can liberate the hairspring from the regulator. Make sure it is in the open position by turning it with a screwdriver (slot behind the pins). It should turn clockwise(?) along with the outer pin...if I am seeing the picture right...You will end up with the hairspring attached to the balance wheel but both free from the cock. Then use the levers as in Mark video to extract the hairspring from the wheel. You will need a way to assemble it back if you don't have a staking tool (once you are done fixing the bends).

 

Hope it helps,

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

[anilv]

It could be that the last person who pinned the spring didn't get it 'square'. The spring should form  a straight line as it passes the pins. It should not have such a pronounced kink.

 

This is my take on what happenned to this spring.

 

Hairspring was replaced but the stud (end of the spring) was not located properly. When beat regulation was attempted, it maded the kink in the spring, drawing the far coils closer and probably pulling the coils out of level.

 

Look at the very end of the spring... you'll see a little 'peg' in a hole which also serves as to hold the end of the hairspring, if not placed correctly it will esult in spring being out of flat.

 

Can you pull the donor balance/spring assembly and compare them? This will show the relationship between the stud, regulator and coils.

 

Anil

[anilv]

This is a picture of how the spring should pass thru the regulator. It should not touch either pin at rest but in reality this is really quite hard to acheive. It should be sufficient that the pins do not influence the curve of the coil.

 

 

Anil

Edited January 27, 2015 by anilv

[clockboy]

I agree with Bob & Anil the problem seems to be with the regulation end. It should be free but looks like it is kinking the spring.

[WillFly]

That's a great picture, Anil - demonstrates how the spring should look to perfection - most instructive.

[anilv]

Not my pic unfortunately

[WillFly]

Not my pic unfortunately

Maybe - but you posted it in the right place! :thumbsu:

[64americandeluxe]

You guys are amazing! Thanks for your guidance. I look forward to tackling this. Cheers!

Roger

[bobm12]

Hi Roger,

 

Just as Anil said, that part of the spring is called a "dog leg" and in yours it is not formed correctly, probably by any one of the issues discussed above. Just adding a little more info to this!

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

[64americandeluxe]

Hi Roger,

 

Just as Anil said, that part of the spring is called a "dog leg" and in yours it is not formed correctly, probably by any one of the issues discussed above. Just adding a little more info to this!

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

That makes sense Bob.  I bought the watch off Ebay as a practice watch and when it arrived, the case back was loose so I knew someone had "been in there".  I'm glad there are issues with the balance assembly as it will be an excellent learning opportunity.

Roger

[bobm12]

Excellent Roger, good learning project! Wish you all the success! Keep us posted on your progress.

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

[Marc]

Hi Roger,

 

I hope I'm not too late to the party with this but I wanted to dig out a FHF(ST)96 from my projects bin to check before posting.

 

The photograph that Anilv posted shows the most common set up for the regulator, where the outer boot (labelled "A" in my pic below) pivots around its own rivet to free the hairspring by inserting a screw driver in the slot and rotating it.

 

The FHF(ST)96 is different in that the outer boot is fixed and has no slot. Instead the inner pin is attached to plate which in turn is riveted to the regulator arm and forms a little lever ("B" in my pic).

 

You need to gently rotate the plate clockwise around its rivet by pushing on the end of the lever, swinging the inner pin away from the boot and freeing the hairspring.

 

 

When reinstalling the hair spring you close the gap between the pin and the boot until the top of the pin just touches the tip of the boot. You can see in my second pic that the the face of the boot is flat, and the pin is machined such that when the top of the pin touches the top of the boot there is just enough clearance for the hairspring.

 

 

I hope this helps.

[Geo]

More excellent advice as from Marc, and very well illustrated! :)

[64americandeluxe]

Hi Marc,

Your post REALLY makes things clearer for me.  I was at my bench last night looking at the hairspring assembly very closely.  What I was looking at and what I was seeing in my books and online didn't jive so I wanted to make sure I was moving forward correctly.  I did notice the brass lever and nudged it gently and did see some movement but left it at that.  

 

With your pics and info I can now continue knowing what the process is.  I am trying to avoid the "hairspring overcooked-spaghetti disaster" which I have read is inevitable for first timers  :biggrin:.

Thanks so much Marc for taking the time to point me in the right direction.

Cheers!

Roger

Edited January 28, 2015 by 64americandeluxe