Smiths Enfield Mantel Clock escapement problem

[Moose]

I should get it out tomorrow and watch the mechanism properly as it advances. 

[oldhippy]

Take the movement out of the case. Move the minute hand manually for the warning and watch the rack drop, take note of where the gathering pallet engages the rack. The correct position for the snail should be for twelve o’clock it should be about, see red arrow. Forget the black ones. Try that first. Let me know.

[luiazazrambo]

First of all I'd like to congratulate you Moose.  This topic makes me smile. I am also a first timer with a Smiths Mantel Clock and decided to take it apart and service mine for the same learning purposes, it was a non runner, but I just had to adjust the pallets a bit to my amazement ( i was not expecting that the clock would start to run as I had no clue whats wrong just had a feeling about the pallets).  I watched youtube videos including this one: Vintage English Enfield mantle clock service but this one does not show how to get the springs out from the barell and how to put them back. Would anyone tell me please what mainspring winder would we need for this job? And what grease or oil would need to be applied for the springs?

I hope you don't mind me to put pictures here about mine.

It is very good to see you lot to be around here and helping out by the way. I love this forum , watches and clocks are an endless source of excitement and I did not know that for 40 years! What a shame!

 

 

[Moose]

15 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Take the movement out of the case. Move the minute hand manually for the warning and watch the rack drop, take note of where the gathering pallet engages the rack. The correct position for the snail should be for twelve o’clock it should be about, see red arrow. Forget the black ones. Try that first. Let me know.

Many thanks again.

did not take long to find the problem. The hour wheel carrying the snail was not correctly adjusted. It was 1 tooth retarded. With the little bit of play that is present (mostly gear backlash) sometimes it would be positioned correctly, sometimes not, hence the erratic chime behaviour. Advancing the hour gear one tooth corrected the problem and now it’s correct across all 12 hour positions.

all back together now and its back to regulating. Many Thanks.

[Moose]

13 hours ago, luiazazrambo said:

First of all I'd like to congratulate you Moose.  This topic makes me smile. I am also a first timer with a Smiths Mantel Clock and decided to take it apart and service mine for the same learning purposes, it was a non runner, but I just had to adjust the pallets a bit to my amazement ( i was not expecting that the clock would start to run as I had no clue whats wrong just had a feeling about the pallets).  I watched youtube videos including this one: Vintage English Enfield mantle clock service but this one does not show how to get the springs out from the barell and how to put them back. Would anyone tell me please what mainspring winder would we need for this job? And what grease or oil would need to be applied for the springs?

I hope you don't mind me to put pictures here about mine.

It is very good to see you lot to be around here and helping out by the way. I love this forum , watches and clocks are an endless source of excitement and I did not know that for 40 years! What a shame!

 

 

Lovely clock. I have another coming now as well, this time in an oak case.

You don’t need a mainspring winder, its easy enough by hand.

I recommend some strong gloves and eye protection. Then I just remove the barrel arbor and take hold of the barrel in one hand making sure you are covering the outer coils of the spring with your thumb or fingers. Then with the other hand, use some pliers to slowly pull out a few of the centre coils, enough so you can take hold of them.

Then, slowly begging to unwind the spring from the barrel very carefully. Tere is a fair bit on energy even in this unwound state, so take your time until it is all out. This is why you need sturdy gloves and eye protection, it case you let go and the spring suddenly releases.

finally, you will be able to unhook the spring from the tag inside the barrel.

Putting it back is simple the reverse of the above.

Someone on here may have pictures, but I’m sure you can figure it out.

Just take care not to bend or catch the spring on the edge of the barrel, as it could fracture and eventually break in service.

[oldhippy]

There are many types of clock mainspring winders. This is the type I have. This one will remove the largest mainsprings from fusee clocks. It will not remove open springs for American clocks, for those you need clips. The best oil for clocks I find is Windles clock oil, I never use clock grease on clock mainsprings, sometimes on ratchet wheels.

 

 

Well done Moose in sorting that strike out.

[luiazazrambo]

Thanks OH! I have Windles clock oil. I understand this winder would do the job? 

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/mainspring-winder-ollie-baker-style

Moose I watched a youtube video how to do it by hand, probably I am going to try that too. I remember though that the guy received comment saying that he should not do that and should use a winder. I guess it all depends on the user and the situation. We hobbyists might be allowed to use this technique on an occasional manner.

[Moose]

I agree totally, better to use a winder if one is available. I will get one if my interest in clocks increases. Right now, i concentrate more on watches, so have more tools for that.

Good luck and thanks for your comments.

[luiazazrambo]

How do you properly remove the barrel lid?

[Moose]

It’s quite straightforward but can take a little effort. There is a little cut out in the lid. Firstly, make a small mark on the side of the barrel that corresponds with the location on the cut out. This will be used to re align the lid when replacing it.

then, take a strong screwdriver that will fit into the cutout and use that to carefully lever the lid off. You will need to be careful not to damage anything and you will likely find that it will take a fair bit of effort to get the cover off, as they are typically a tight fit.

[oldhippy]

Too ways of doing this. My preferred way is is with a small wooden mallet, hit the winding arbor on the reverse side and the lid will pop off. The second is if the barrel cap has an opening insert a screwdriver blade and twist.   

[Moose]

Thanks. Both are good tips. I’ll try them next time. I have another coming hopefully this week. I seem to have bought another non-runner.

the first one is currently running at about plus 15 seconds a day, and I’m very happy how the repair worked out. It has not run down on a full wind yet, so I don’t know how worn the springs are, but things are certainly looking good.

[transporter]

 Moose, well done Sir, I have not attempted a re bush as of yet but do have a couple of clocks that need it done, like you i knew the principle behind bushing but have not yet got round to attempting it yet. Your post with the pictures and  explanations of each stage has been inspirational to my self in having a crack at this once i have cleared the bench of other unfinished projects. Again well done  and thanks. 

[watchweasol]

Regarding mainspring removal and reinsertion I build one based on Joe Collins 400 day spring remover, Its chunky but id works the only high cost is the spring retainer sleeves which i got from Timesavers . It will take; any clock spring out and put it back. Ok its not super smooth like the Olly Baker one but it cost a lot less to build. If you want pictures let me know.  The Olly Baker is approx £350  Time savers do the Webster design around £250, Mine including sleves less than £100.

[Moose]

I would be interest in seeing the picture, if you don't mind. I found something suitable on eBay and thought I could replicate it with some ratchet spanner's etc. I don't mind a bit of DIY'ing (specially whilst we are in "lockdown").

 

[oldhippy]

The type I have cost around £120 second hand about a year ago. I sold my original one back in the 90's.  

 

[luiazazrambo]

1 hour ago, watchweasol said:

Regarding mainspring removal and reinsertion I build one based on Joe Collins 400 day spring remover, Its chunky but id works the only high cost is the spring retainer sleeves which i got from Timesavers . It will take; any clock spring out and put it back. Ok its not super smooth like the Olly Baker one but it cost a lot less to build. If you want pictures let me know.  The Olly Baker is approx £350  Time savers do the Webster design around £250, Mine including sleves less than £100.

Can we have a picture and the blueprint please?

[luiazazrambo]

I understand that this is not necessary but with a lot of elbow grease and brasso I polished the bits and pieces. Took me a day. Have they treated the plates with something? It was very difficult to polish them. I want to place it on my bench and watch it as it winds down, at least once before it collects too much dust. I am going to take apart the barrels now and after cleaning of them and oiling the mainsprings I am going to make an attempt of re-assembly.

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by luiazazrambo

[Moose]

The main plates have a lacquer coating. If you are too aggressive when cleaning, you can wear it off, in which case it may end up not looking too good without complete removal. Its not always there, but I was told to expect it on nearly all old Smiths.

I learned the hard way, with an old Smiths car clock. After normal cleaning in my cleaning machine, you could see a lot of the lacquer had dissolved, leaving a messy looking set of plates, which then all had to be completely cleaned.

[watchweasol]

Hi Guys  This is the tool in question along with the shells,   Clamped ti the bench It is capoable of removing and inserting springs safely,  I have still got all my fingers        If you are interested I will take some measurements for you  I build this of the top of my head using the Joe Collins design for the 400 day springs this will do them as well.    Google Joe Collins mainspring winder I believe its still on the web although he does not make them any more.. Mine uses a copper socket that fits my spring let down tools, I made another that uses a chuck from a tap wrench as it adapts to any barrel arbour..

[Bod]

Joe Collins Winder in action.

 

Bod

[Moose]

That’s great, watchweasol. I have seen something with a similar arrangement on eBay. Yours looks easier to fabricate with a bit of diy skill.

its definitely something I would have a go at, so I might well have a look in the workshop to see what materials I can use. Many thanks and, what a well equipped workshop you have.

Thanks Bod, also.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Moose

[oldhippy]

I wouldn’t want to use that contraption to remove one of those powerful fusee springs. I’m sure it would pull it apart.

[luiazazrambo]

1 hour ago, watchweasol said:

Hi Guys  This is the tool in question along with the shells,   Clamped ti the bench It is capoable of removing and inserting springs safely,  I have still got all my fingers        If you are interested I will take some measurements for you  I build this of the top of my head using the Joe Collins design for the 400 day springs this will do them as well.    Google Joe Collins mainspring winder I believe its still on the web although he does not make them any more.. Mine uses a copper socket that fits my spring let down tools, I made another that uses a chuck from a tap wrench as it adapts to any barrel arbour..

Thank you for this. Are you drinking while you mess with the watches and clocks? I noticed the glasses. 

[luiazazrambo]

Hi *,

I used a piece of off cut wood to pop up the barrel lid. Drilled a hole first with a drill bit, same size as the barrel arbor pivot diameter a bit deeper than the second drill in the same hole with the size of the barrel arbor diameter then placed it on the barrel arbor and hit the wood with my rubber mallet. Basically the same principle as OH described. The lid popped up relatively easy, glove was required as without it the teeth were hurting my delicate skin.

best regards,

lui