making your own tooling

[MechanicMike]

hi y'all-newbie here and I'm sure everybody knows that buying tools for watch repair and/or mods can be expensive if you don't want some of the plentiful cheaper stuff that's out there. That would be me because I'll be turning my hobby into some sort of income soon, when I retire, and I've already spent a small fortune(for me!) on tooling. I surf all over the 'Net looking for the cheapest price; new or used, estate sales, you name it. My questions are, are there blueprints out there for some of this stuff? has anyone made their own tooling? I'm also a machinist and I'd definitely attempt to make my own, and share with everybody. Can this be done? anyone attempted it? 

[oldhippy]

Thank you for your introduction and welcome to this friendly forum.

When it comes to tools I always advise members to buy the best they can afford. To start with a good set of watchmakers screwdrivers and Dumont tweezers are a must have. 

[nickelsilver]

Which tools are you thinking of making and what equipment do you have to make it?

[jdm]

2 hours ago, oldhippy said:

When it comes to tools I always advise members to buy the best they can afford. To start with a good set of watchmakers screwdrivers and Dumont tweezers are a must have. 

In that case  the OP wrote he's got enough for himself, and is looking for "blueprints" to make his own to sell.
Which I find to be a too wide and likely fruitless search, because even if you could find drawing isn't said that that these would be for the tools that people really want to buy. What is normally done is that the leading type or its copy is obtained, and then copied again. Only sometime it is also improved, but in the end the drawing, if any, are done again.

[watchweasol]

Hi   like jdm says the most used and most likely tools are copied with just enough difference so as to avoid infringment of the patent rights and there fore the drawings are again copied. Wether these would be put on the open market I dont think so.  One could always make inquiries through the patents office on tools that are out of patent. It also depends on the machine tools at your disposal to make or reproduce the product. And if selling the product at a competitive price

[jdm]

11 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi   like jdm says the most used and most likely tools are copied with just enough difference so as to avoid infringment of the patent rights and there fore the drawings are again copied. 

Only some tools are patented, and when they are be that is generally shown on the item. And, patents may have long expired, either because of statutory tems, or failure by the owner. Also, patents are generally enforceable only in the issuing country. It is a complicated matter, I think when it comes to the small sector of watchmaking tools it is not something that a guy making stuff in an home shop should worry about.

Edited April 23, 2020 by jdm

[wls1971]

If you want to make a useful tool start making Platax tools seeing Bergeon stopped making them, but that in itself says a lot if its not worth their while making them it's probably not worth anyone else's.

[watchweasol]

Probably so but it was just a point worth taking into consideration  But I get your point.

[nickelsilver]

59 minutes ago, wls1971 said:

If you want to make a useful tool start making Platax tools seeing Bergeon stopped making them, but that in itself says a lot if its not worth their while making them it's probably not worth anyone else's.

Making a Platax would allow one to see that the rare used ones that come up are well worth the price at several hundred bucks or more!

 

On that note, I have made tools in the past, but really only when there either wasn't something commercially available, or making it actually is cheaper than buying. If one is a professional, then you have to count your time as you would working on paying work and see if it's worth it. I made a quick change toolpost for my watchmaker lathe, at that time I was in school and the day or two spent was far less painful than shelling out hundreds of dollars. I made a pentagonal female driver to remove the back screws on an Audemars Piguet, no chance of buying one.

 

For basic tools like screwdrivers there are so many choices not including the Aliexpress stuff that it just doesn't make sense. For something like a staking tool which is painfully expensive new, there are dozens available at any moment secondhand for very cheap. Tweezers would be incredibly hard to make and be even close to what cheap ones are quality wise.

 

Then there are things that might be useful enough, rare enough used and no longer made, to warrant making. In the Louis Levin book Practical Benchwork for Horologists there actually are blueprints for a screwcutting attachment that can be adapted to almost any watchmaker's lathe equipped with a cross slide. One of my old students did make one a few years back and does use it frequently; but he does primarily component making for restoration work, and encounters many odd threads that would be tricky to impossible to make without it. A few of the lathe makers offered these in the past but they were rarely bought and thus very very hard to find second hand.

 

Something I do make quite often is special pushers and stumps to be used in a jeweling tool. Pushers with short blind holes to help push small steady pins in straight, pushers or stumps with relief grooves or holes machined in to clear obstacles, all sorts. I have hundreds and still make them once a month or so. It's handy to have some steel in staking punch diameter too, even with a large set you might find that you really want/need something special.

Edited April 23, 2020 by nickelsilver

[jdm]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

I made a pentagonal female driver to remove the back screws on an Audemars Piguet, no chance of buying one.

That must have been before "China AND CNC" 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000745105373.html

That's just an example, there was another seller with many more types sold  (not cheaply) individually, 

Quote

For basic tools like screwdrivers there are so many choices not including the Aliexpress stuff that it just doesn't make sense.

Now that Cousins UK sells unbranded AF for cheap, that is even more correct. Previously I've got the below and very happy with. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32565947452.html 

Quote

In the Louis Levin book Practical Benchwork for Horologists there actually are blueprints for a screwcutting attachment that can be adapted to almost any watchmaker's lathe equipped with a cross slide. One of my old students did make one a few years back and does use it frequently; but he does primarily component making for restoration work, and encounters many odd threads that would be tricky to impossible to make without it. A few of the lathe makers offered these in the past but they were rarely bought and thus very very hard to find second hand.

I'm the first being intrigued by screwcutting but I remain a bit skeptical about the utmost importance of having a complicated threading setup on a (small) watchmaker lathe to make small threads. Change gers copiers, etc everytime a new job shows up. Better maybe bite the bullet (steel bar) once and make your own tap or die with the hope of reusing it the future

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by jdm

[nickelsilver]

Wow, good to know about those drivers! I made mine probably 12 years ago.

 

My friend does make taps and dies, but you still need the ability to match the thread pitch thus the threading setup. He's a maniac though, he often just directly grinds the threads on the part with the threading setup.

[jdm]

2 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

Wow, good to know about those drivers! I made mine probably 12 years ago.

Here's the "all the others" https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000117113805.htm

Not cheap and I would love to see someone beating the Chinese at their own game. And hats off to who's able to make for his own use, micro internal impulse cutting ... hmmm..

[HectorLooi]

How about making Ollie Baker mainspring winders. Cousins seems to be out of stock most of the time. Whenever stocks come in, it is almost always snapped up in a couple of days. 

I just started making my own because the prices for a new one is crazy. Even used ones on ebay are really expensive.

I already have an old English pattern mainspring winder and started thinking of making an adapter for winding larger clock springs. I've seen videos of some diy winders on YouTube and those didn't really interest me.

Now I will have to figure out how to build the rest of it with readily available stuff.

[MechanicMike]

19 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Thank you for your introduction and welcome to this friendly forum.

When it comes to tools I always advise members to buy the best they can afford. To start with a good set of watchmakers screwdrivers and Dumont tweezers are a must have. 

I sure did. the Bergeon 9 and Dumont #1 and 3 came in the mail the other day. you cannot substitute anything for good quality. what a difference good stuff makes! thanks! still building....

[MechanicMike]

19 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Which tools are you thinking of making and what equipment do you have to make it?

anything that can be made using a mill,, lathe and surface grinder because thats about all I got!

[MechanicMike]

16 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Making a Platax would allow one to see that the rare used ones that come up are well worth the price at several hundred bucks or more!

 

On that note, I have made tools in the past, but really only when there either wasn't something commercially available, or making it actually is cheaper than buying. If one is a professional, then you have to count your time as you would working on paying work and see if it's worth it. I made a quick change toolpost for my watchmaker lathe, at that time I was in school and the day or two spent was far less painful than shelling out hundreds of dollars. I made a pentagonal female driver to remove the back screws on an Audemars Piguet, no chance of buying one.

 

For basic tools like screwdrivers there are so many choices not including the Aliexpress stuff that it just doesn't make sense. For something like a staking tool which is painfully expensive new, there are dozens available at any moment secondhand for very cheap. Tweezers would be incredibly hard to make and be even close to what cheap ones are quality wise.

 

Then there are things that might be useful enough, rare enough used and no longer made, to warrant making. In the Louis Levin book Practical Benchwork for Horologists there actually are blueprints for a screwcutting attachment that can be adapted to almost any watchmaker's lathe equipped with a cross slide. One of my old students did make one a few years back and does use it frequently; but he does primarily component making for restoration work, and encounters many odd threads that would be tricky to impossible to make without it. A few of the lathe makers offered these in the past but they were rarely bought and thus very very hard to find second hand.

 

Something I do make quite often is special pushers and stumps to be used in a jeweling tool. Pushers with short blind holes to help push small steady pins in straight, pushers or stumps with relief grooves or holes machined in to clear obstacles, all sorts. I have hundreds and still make them once a month or so. It's handy to have some steel in staking punch diameter too, even with a large set you might find that you really want/need something special.

that Platax would be right up my alley. exactly the type of stuff I'm talking about. thanks for all the good info. true, some stuff is a no-brainer; I have no way of making it and it just has to be bought. Others, I'll just have to buy and if I can make it better somehow or I come up with a tooling idea, I'll build it. I'll be looking into that Levin book also. What school were you in? I actually attended and graduated from(tool trade) the trade school here where they used to have a 2 year course on watch repair. Sadly and because a world famous manufacturer stopped with their scholarship and sponsorship, it closed in 2012 with all the tooling sold at auction. sure enough, I hadn't got back into watches at that time. Just my luck. and I remember the lab rooms being FULL of all sorts of everything. if I only knew then what I know now...

 

[MechanicMike]

14 hours ago, jdm said:

That must have been before "China AND CNC" 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000745105373.html

That's just an example, there was another seller with many more types sold  (not cheaply) individually, 

Now that Cousins UK sells unbranded AF for cheap, that is even more correct. Previously I've got the below and very happy with. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32565947452.html 

I'm the first being intrigued by screwcutting but I remain a bit skeptical about the utmost importance of having a complicated threading setup on a (small) watchmaker lathe to make small threads. Change gers copiers, etc everytime a new job shows up. Better maybe bite the bullet (steel bar) once and make your own tap or die with the hope of reusing it the future

 

 

 

man, I had a hard enough time cutting regular threads on larger pieces....MAKING taps and dies? and that small too? thats a whole different challenge!

[MechanicMike]

18 hours ago, jdm said:

In that case  the OP wrote he's got enough for himself, and is looking for "blueprints" to make his own to sell.
Which I find to be a too wide and likely fruitless search, because even if you could find drawing isn't said that that these would be for the tools that people really want to buy. What is normally done is that the leading type or its copy is obtained, and then copied again. Only sometime it is also improved, but in the end the drawing, if any, are done again.

not looking to make to sell. i've always been proud of tools I've made myself because none exists. thats the cool part.

[rodabod]

I make the odd simple tools when I can’t buy one. Things I’ve made recently were a specific size of rose cutter which I made from silver steel, and some tool bits for screwing down crystal retaining rings. 
The BHI practical courses have tools which you are expected to make at the end of each chapter, so I’ve made some of those.  

[JGrainger]

I've never officially been employed as a machinist but have done a reasonable amount of it under less well-paid "general operative" title.. and in my spare time.

Watch repair is an interesting activity when it comes to tools. There are so many to choose from, and there's a lot of interest in nice old bits of equipment to make specific parts which can be made using other methods today. In some ways it seems to demonstrate how there was less apparent certainty of the ability to measure and make to size in the first attempt (like knowing what size then hitting it dead on size with carbide turning inserts compared to being able to creep up with HSS with multiple checks as it gets closer).. thinking of wheel cutting, but also turning.

I'd be tempted to suggest a Platax tool, though a staking set can usually be equipped with the stakes and anvils to do the same thing. I sometimes make little bits of tooling and other bits.. like some stakes and anvils for my staking set and jewelling tool.. made some tools for servicing the pre-war Zeiss Contax cameras too (pin pushing punches / mini pin spanners/ non-marking gear grip).. I'm presently building a Schaublin-inspired overhead drive for a similar sort of American bench lathe after rebuilding the bench - it was in storage a long time and some missing parts were later acquired seperately.

There are a few watch lathe tools such as compound slides, and screwhead polishing tools which are reasonably expensive (though arguably not necessary thanks to gravers and freehand polishing tools). The hardest thing about making hand tools is that they are sometimes too small to copy from pictures. Mainspring winders are useful and some are expensive.