Help! Ricoh Calibre 61

[GJM]

Hello All,

I'm working on the restoration of a Ricoh calibre 61 (~ early 70's) as my first project.

I've mainly been having issues in dealing with the tiny springs that are there in the movement. A few times, I managed to locate the spring that pinged off but this time, the click spring (image attached) has pinged while I was trying to move the cleaned parts in the dust tray and I'm almost certain I've run out of luck in finding it.

Can anyone please advise if there is a way to make the click spring or any of these other springs? Where will I be able to source the springs?

Lastly, any tips on the best way to remove these small springs?

Thanks a lot!!

[watchweasol]

             When removing springs and parts with the  likely  hood of them disappearing into the ether work inside a large clear plastic bag, one big enough to cut the end off and work from both ends, That way should parts take off they are encapsulated in the bag for retrieval. Or alternativly use a piece of rodico to hold the part while removing or fitting, being tacky it will assist in holding the part.  As to finding a new part  try Cousins uk  watch parts, wether you will be able to get one specific to the ricoh i think that will be difficult buy you may be able to purchase an assortment and get lucky.          Cheers

[GJM]

Thank you watchweasol! I did have cousins UK in mind but I'm in the Middle East and getting them to ship it to where I am is expensive so was wondering if anyone managed to make a spring.

On another note, I just completed the cleaning of all the parts except the keyless works. I managed to find one of the train wheel teeth to be damaged (image attached). I believe this is the seconds wheel? 

Interestingly, when I first opened the watch - a while ago - I noticed the hair spring from the balance had come off and had gotten wound in the train wheels.

While taking the watch apart, I tried to unwind the power by disengaging the click spring but there was no response on the crown. And then when I took of the pallet off at a later stage, the whole thing unwound rapidly

So many newbie mistakes. I'm not sure which of the above damaged the wheel.

 

[watchweasol]

I would imaging the sudden release of power is what has destroyed the wheel, unfortunatly from my research information and parts are hard to come by for the ricoh watches. Probably best to trawl ebay or others, speedetimekollection, in europe, welwynwatchparts.co.uk, obsoletewatchandclockparts.com (UK)   then there are Jules Borel, esslingers, Timesavers in the USA  are probably worth a look ,   I wish you well, good luck.

[GJM]

So the hunt begins for parts.. thank you for the guidance. Much appreciated. 

[GJM]

Hello All,

Hope you're safe, doing well and in good health.

As an update, I managed to source a click spring and the seconds wheel. After a lot of struggle - mainly because I was scared - I managed to put the click and click spring back together in the process of assembling the movement.

In the final step of putting the balance, I couldn't get the movement to run. This is the first issue.

I can say that the train wheel bridge and pallet fork are all seated correctly in their pivots as I kept checking the function every time I went a step further. I'd also add that I've used Mobi 9020 when oiling the pivots as I'm waiting for my supply of 9010 and other oils+greases although I don't think that would be a major problem. It is also very possible that the oiling is not an A grade job. The first round of putting the watch back together is an experiment to see if I can get the watch to tick. I will redo the whole project once I have the oils. In this current build, I was not even going to proceed with the keyless works; rather disassemble the movement.

The two other issues are;

1. After I removed the balance, I tried to tap the pallet fork to see if it is gripping the escape wheel on the entry and exit points but I couldn't see that happening like what I've seen in some of Mark's and other videos on YT.

2. I had wound the mainspring a few turns just to have some power in when I put in the balance. As the escape wheel was unresponsive, I tried to unwind the mainspring to release any power but when i disengaged the click, the barrel didn't turn. Worryingly, this is exactly what I saw when I first disassembled the movement and when I took out the pallet fork, a lot power was released which apparently damaged the seconds wheel.

Can someone please advise what could be the problem here with the three issues I've mentioned? 

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

P.S. This is my first project of restoring my Grandfather's watch.

[watchweasol]

Hi   So we are now in the same state as it was in the first place, yes?   Unable to release the power when the click is removed from the ratchet wheel.   The only path is to remove the balance  and place a piece of rodico  on the ratchet wheel to stop it moving  place a piece of peg wood carefully into the gear train so as to jam the train. now with it all locked up remove the pallet/fork, now comes the trickey bit in releasing the train under braking condition so the power release is controlled or alternativly keep the ratchet wheel/barrel in the locked condition and remove the train bridge and wheels when done finally let down the mainspring under braking, again a controlled slow release of the power. Now hopefully the mainspring will be let down so that the barrel can be removed with its bridge so you can check for the problem as to why the barrel is jamming. Assemble just the barrel and its bridge and ratchet wheel and with a screwdriver on the ratchet wheel screw put one turn on the barrel and check for the freedom of rotation.    I have used the above method/s when been in the same situation and managed not to break anything. The key word is slow and controlled release of the power. 

[GJM]

Thank you watchweasol. It took me a while to figure out how to the jam the train wheels and while I was trying to figure that out, I discovered the horn on which the pallet fork moves back and forth was bent and that did not allow the escape wheel to move further from the entry stone of the pallet fork. I managed to straighten that and tried putting on the balance but no luck. Then, I used a thin needle to try and jam the train of wheels and the end of that neddle was resting on the center wheel. In that state, when I tried to move the pallet fork, it was responsive and I could see it was allowing the escape wheel to move with corresponding movement of the other wheels. The moment I removed the needle from the 'jar' position, the escape wheel was no longer responsive. I'm still trying figure out what the issue is considering all wheels were spinning freely after I removed the pallet fork and tried winding the barrel. 

Secondly, I did everything as you said i.e. Only put the barrel, ratchet and the barrel gear. After winding the spring a little, I tried to release the click spring but the barrel did not unwind. This is what I'm examining currently as I write this. 

P. S. I manually unwound the power from the barrel by rotating the ratchet gear in the opposite direction till the point I could not rotate it anymore. 

[watchweasol]

Hi You definitley have an issue with the barrel/arbour, If you can remove the cap from the mainspring barrel and check on the condition of the spring its self it may be a contributary factor.

[GJM]

Quote

 

As always, thank you very much for your reply watchweasol.

I'll do as you have recommended and share my findings. ON the outset though, I'm thinking if there was an issue with the winding of the spring / power source, would that allow for the movement in the escape wheel i.e. translation of power?

[watchweasol]

The fact that you have a problem releasing power from the mainspring, there must be an issue so untill that is resolved and the barrel will wind up and release through the click   every thing else is on hold. we have to solve that little problem, then introduce the train wheels into the equasion and check for power transmission through the gear work,  then add the pallet/fork and check its action is snappy between the bankings. When we have achieved all that then its time to fit the balance.   It all sounds long winded but its a case of taking bite size chunks and establishing the desired result at each stage. It is all standard diagnostic practice.     all the best

[GJM]

Will do Sir. I shall do the needful and revert. Many thanks again for all your help and advice on this project.

[GJM]

Hello Watchweasol et. anyone else reading this,

I managed to strip the movement and just assemble the mainspring and ratchet wheel.

After inserting some rodico to jam the bottom of the mainspring barrel, I wound up the barrel using a screwdriver. When I released the click spring, the barrel moved by maybe to gear teeth or almost nothing. I inspected the mainspring and the arbour and everything looks fine.

Not sure what the issue is; could be I haven't inserted the arbour correctly. The mainspring also doesn't seem to sit on the centre of the barrel groove until I place it with the arbour and lock it.

I did also mess the mainspring while winding it back as I dont have a mainspring winder so had to go old school (hands). The mainspring was horribly deformed but when I wound it up the correct way, it regained I think 70% of its initial shape. Is this a major problem now?

[watchweasol]

Hi  It is likely it will become an issue but there will probably be a GRspring available at cousins need to know the height , thickness. length and barrel diameter in order to decode cousins springs on offer , but for now it will suffice whilst we get to the bottom of the lack of power.  So with just the barrel, spring and its associated bridge fitted it still lacks power, does the barrel rotate ok with no spring power freely, is the spring fitted to high and binding on the barrel lid (look for scrape marks), does the barrel rotate ok on the arbour without the spring fitted, just the barrel and bridge and arbour fitted. Is the arbour binding on the bridge or barrel all need to be considerd.    cheers

[GJM]

Hello Watchweasol, I got caught up with work the last few days but today I managed to make some time and was able to do what you advised. 

When I opened the lid of the mainspring barrel, the mainspring seems to be off the centre hole and everytime I try to bring it to the centre, it jumps back out of place. I tried inserting the arbour into the spring using a round pivot stake, centering the arbor with peg wood and subsequently closing the barrel.

After assembling the bridge and winding the watch, I still can't seem to power up the mainspring. When winding, it seems there is some slippage with the arbor and spring. I even tried recording the video to upload it but the file size is over 30mb.

Can you please let me know your thoughts? I'm thinking it's best i just order a full mainspring barrel assembly so it becomes plug and play; fixing what i have thought this is definitely my preference.

[watchweasol]

Hi   you could try re forming the spring end so as it grips the anchor point on the arbour.  Itake it that the anchor point is ok and not broken off,  If the spring is too badly   damaged  and will not re form  it will have to be a new spring. but before going down that road you need to check  a. the arbour    b. the spring eye for damage    c. the anchor point on the outer wall of the barrel..measure the hight of the old spring and the depth of the barrel to the lip where the barrel cal fits to be sure the spring is the correct one.     If you purchase a mainspring and barrel they will be separate items and the spring will need fitting.