Novice Troubles with Reassembling Balance

[ColinZ80]

I was very much into tinkering with watches for a few months. I got to the point where I disassembled a few movements and could put them back together and have them run. I always had trouble with the balance wheel though.

On every movement I have (Elgin 544, 2 Hamilton 689, Hamilton 661) I can't seem to get the balance running consistently at all. If I take it out and try putting it in again it will behave differently yet still incorrect. Most will stop ticking in a few seconds. Sometimes it will run forever until I turn it on its side. The Hamilton 661 will consistently run fast. Way faster than I can adjust.

I'm wondering if there is something that I'm missing. Most videos I watch have people rather nonchalantly wiggling the balance assembly into position, then off it goes! Any advice is appreciated. 

[saswatch88]

These movements you quoted are very old (1940/50s era) so they are much more inclined to fault when not handled properly.my first question is are you cleaning and oiling these before reassembling? If not then that can be your issue to begin with but here’s what i think......

the one that stops on the side = bent balance staff and/or broken jewel why? Because you did not set the balance properly before screwing down the bridge. It’s should be ticking as soon as you seat it correctly if  there is power from the mainspring. I always wind up the watch and check action of the pallet before installing the balance. Once you see it running put the screw in and gently rest your finger on the bridge while you screw it down, sometimes they wiggle as you screw it down and the staff can pop out of the pivot. Just use the weight of your finger do not apply any additional pressure. Do not screw it down all the way at first, screw it until bridge is secure remove finger the tighten it as much as you can from there...balance screws should be tight too loose can cause watch to stop.

the one that runs fast = magnetized or sticking hairspring coil why? Because you didn’t clean the movement. Or demagnetize the movement and or your tools. You could also be warping the hairspring when you remove it or not setting it down properly after you remove it. It should be laid on its back with wheel sitting into the balance cock pivot, or put up on a balance tack...some are against this but i have used a balance tack forever and never once had an issue....i just wouldn’t leave it there too long. When a movement runs fast look very closely at the coils expanding and contracting - a cell phone video with slow motion works good. Make sure none of the coils are sticking and also make sure the expansion is even on both sides. when not laid properly the hairspring can get off center and coils will contract much more on one side causing it to run fast.

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by saswatch88

[ColinZ80]

On 6/27/2020 at 12:26 AM, saswatch88 said:

are you cleaning and oiling these before reassembling? 

I have been doing a simple hand wash with naptha and some tooth picks as it seems many of the people starting out do. I can't find any evidence of debris, and these were relatively clean movements to begin with. I haven't ventured into oils yet. From what I gather online, they should run decently clean without oil, provided I put them together correctly. Of course I wouldn't start wearing them until I get the oils in there. 

Thanks for your detailed explanation of placing the balance assembly. It is not a far fetched idea that at some point earlier on I ever slightly bent the balance staff. I've been messing with these movements since I first started taking apart watches and my hands were not nearly as gentle as they are now.  I'll have to try and find some donors.

[saswatch88]

I have been doing a simple hand wash with naptha and some tooth picks as it seems many of the people starting out do. I can't find any evidence of debris, and these were relatively clean movements to begin with. I haven't ventured into oils yet. From what I gather online, they should run decently clean without oil, provided I put them together correctly. Of course I wouldn't start wearing them until I get the oils in there.  Thanks for your detailed explanation of placing the balance assembly. It is not a far fetched idea that at some point earlier on I ever slightly bent the balance staff. I've been messing with these movements since I first started taking apart watches and my hands were not nearly as gentle as they are now.  I'll have to try and find some donors.

 

Wow! Your not oiling them?! That’s your issue. Believe it or not by cleaning it and not oiling it it’s better off the way it was before. Ok a dry watch can run....but it will NOT run well and it will surely wear down pivots and pinions quicker than you can imagine. You can do a soap water with brush rinse than a naptha soak for about 12 hours. Then a 91% isopropyl alcohol bath for about 5 min. You can get The alcohol at any pharmacy. Do not put the balance or the pallet in the alcohol. But you really do need to get yourself some oil do not buy the cheap stuff I would say the cheapest that you could buy that would be”OK” to use is moebius 8000, Its about $10. a $4 oiler small and one medium.....for future you start of with synthetics moebius 9010 for high friction areas, moebius HP 1300 for low friction and molykote grease for high torque areas and keyless works total for these 3 will be about $70 shipped from esslinger. These oils will last you a very very long time. Some say these have a shelflife but since they are synthetic they will last much longer. I know some people that are still using Elgin 56 synthetics from the 1950s. If you don’t start oiling your movements you are always going to have problems Even if you handled the balance correctly.

Do not use toothpicks use pegwood

 

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[Klassiker]

Hi Colin,

why not check out Mark Lovick's very instructive videos on Youtube. For example, this is a three-part "how-to" showing the service process from start to finish.

Mark also offers courses.

Try to understand the functions of the different modules within the watch (going train, escapement, keyless works, automatic winding mechanism etc.) and check them individually. Learning to strip, clean, reassemble and oil a basic movement is relatively easy. If it works well afterwards, that's good, but you don't learn anything new. Fault finding is when it gets really interesting.