Opening an Unopenable Caseback? ['72 Zenith Defy A3642]

[dpn]

I've owned a FED before ;-)

My love is old Minoltas and their amazing Rokkor lenses. My favorite camera to shoot is an SRT-101, and I have an XD-11 that is, except for some very minor differences, identical to a Leica R6. (As with watches, however, it's the little differences that make all the difference ...)

Getting a mirrorless camera has been revelatory, since I can use all of my old fancy Minolta glass. I also shoot large format with a gorgeous Sinar P that's far too heavy for me to use in the type of photography I like.

I had been saving for a nice Leica M3 for years ... and then I rediscovered watches.

Check out this comparison picture between the R6 and the XD-11.

 

[Watchtime]

On 9/3/2020 at 3:59 PM, jdm said:

I hope that replaced parts are returned to the owner, demanding collectors may be willing to pay dearly but they become very unsettled by loss of total originality when even slightly different, "service parts" are fitted.

the replaced parts were packed together with the watch

[Watchtime]

On 9/4/2020 at 1:03 AM, dpn said:

I've owned a FED before ;-)

My love is old Minoltas and their amazing Rokkor lenses. My favorite camera to shoot is an SRT-101, and I have an XD-11 that is, except for some very minor differences, identical to a Leica R6. (As with watches, however, it's the little differences that make all the difference ...)

Getting a mirrorless camera has been revelatory, since I can use all of my old fancy Minolta glass. I also shoot large format with a gorgeous Sinar P that's far too heavy for me to use in the type of photography I like.

I had been saving for a nice Leica M3 for years ... and then I rediscovered watches.

Check out this comparison picture between the R6 and the XD-11.

 

Interesting, I also collect vintage cameras, many need some tlc but I have too many watch projects....

[AndyHull]

At the risk of driving this thread even further off the rails, I recently wanted to scan some old negatives. I tried my flatbed scanner which was terrible. I tried whatever Aunty Google recommended including my phone, various apps.

Nothing produced anything close to acceptable results, so I designed a widget to fit on one of my Canon point and shoot cameras. 3D printed it,  and used that in conjunction with a light box made from an LED ceiling fitting.

I then used RawTherapee, Darktable and Gimp (all open source applications) to post process the negatives to positives.

Does it work?

Well, apart from the negative being somewhat scratched,  I think the results are not too bad, and streets ahead of what I could muster with the scanner or the phone.

Above is one of the  images of the Forth Bridge, from the mystery lot of old negatives, taken some time around 1990 on Jessops negative film and for comparison, here it is recently using a Ricoh CX3 digital.

 

Edited September 10, 2020 by AndyHull

[dpn]

That's super cool!

I've owned a Nikon Coolscan 8000 (medium format film-only scanner) and several Epsons. I bought an old 35mm-only Minolta Dimage film scanner that works amazing ... as good as the Nikon Coolscan. Unfortunately, the Nikon Coolscan was outrageously expensive and fragile. For medium and large format, I'm still stuck using an Epson flatbed. I had to learn to stop worrying about achieving ultimate quality. There are lots of things one can do to improve quality (using anti-Newtonian glass inserts, aftermarket film holders, and even wet mounting one's film to the scanner glass), but they're a huge hassle.

I think film scanners are going the way of the dinosaurs -- have you seen that Nikon film-scanner attachment? It's "only" $140 and apparently works a treat ... but it presupposes one already owns a D850 and one of their 60mm f/2.8 macro lenses. To me, this is the best way forward. https://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/miscellaneous/es-2-film-digitizing-adapter-set.html

For me personally, I've pretty much stopped shooting anything other than 35mm. I home develop my C41 (super easy with proper temperature control), and scan on my Minolta Dimage. I can't complain.

[dpn]

... to bring this at least a little bit back on topic, I did recently learn that the active ingredient in "One Dip" cleaner is the same active ingredient in those old anti-static film cleaners that used to be popular (Edwal, ECCO, etc.). It's TCE ... fairly nasty stuff.

[AndyHull]

29 minutes ago, dpn said:

 

For me personally, I've pretty much stopped shooting anything other than 35mm. I home develop my C41 (super easy with proper temperature control), and scan on my Minolta Dimage. I can't complain.

The reason that the negatives were a mystery, was that I had processed a whole bunch of C41 stuff at home, a long time back, but these never got printed, so they were sitting in film negative envelopes in a folder in the attic with  no real clue as to their quality, or indeed what the subject was in some cases. Negatives of mountain scenery can be somewhat difficult to identify.

I guess I could have sent them off to be printed, but I thought I'd see if they were worth it first, which is what sent me down the rabbit hole of scanning them at home.

Edited September 10, 2020 by AndyHull

[AndyHull]

14 minutes ago, dpn said:

To me, this is the best way forward. https://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/miscellaneous/es-2-film-digitizing-adapter-set.html

Neat idea. I may borrow some cues from that design.

The Canon Powershot A2200 I used runs CHDK, so I can get RAW  images form it, and RawTherapee will do the lens correction. It has built in Canon Powershot lens profiles or you can define your own,  and it can convert negatives to positives including acceptable orange colour mask removal with different masks predefined, or using the unexposed area round the negative.

It also batch processes, so the work flow is actually quite simple. feed the negatives through my widget on top of the lightbox. Click away. Post process in RawTherapee, then do any final tinkering in Gimp or DarkTable.
 

25 minutes ago, dpn said:

t's TCE ... fairly nasty stuff.

I thought trichloroethylene had completely fallen out of favour. In the past I have used it for PCB cleaning amongst other things, and yes, it is pretty aggressive and somewhat hazardous. Don't drink it while chewing on your radium lumed hands and you should be just fine.  

[nickelsilver]

Carrying on in derailing, I used a lot of vintage cameras in the 90s, Rollies, Mamiya (medium format) and got hooked on Voigtlander 35mm stuff too. Being poor I bought a lot of "ugly" grade stuff from KEH in Atlanta which was often functional but manky but sometimes needed a service.

Fixing those cameras was my start into fine mechanics and set me on the path to watchmaking (a Voigtlander Bessamatic makes a perpetual calendar look easy haha). A lot of Ronsonol and 3n1 oil on those early attempts, funnily they still work 25 years later!

Then I bought some Dumont #3 tweezers and a ladies Seiko automatic from a thrift store and a little schooling later now I live in Switzerland.

[AndyHull]

15 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

Carrying on in derailing, I used a lot of vintage cameras in the 90s, Rollies, Mamiya (medium format) and got hooked on Voigtlander 35mm stuff too. Being poor I bought a lot of "ugly" grade stuff from KEH in Atlanta which was often functional but manky but sometimes needed a service.

Maybe we should start a new thread related to camera repair. I have one or two specimens that needed some TLC when I picked them up from various flea markets and jumble sales. I even have a medium format, and a large tripod that were recovered from two separate skips (dumpsters).

The PowerShot A2200 is one of a bunch of damaged Canons I picked up for pennies on ebay a while back when I was active on the CHDK development forum and Wiki. You may recognise this guy.   https://chdk.setepontos.com/index.php?topic=10728.10 

[dpn]

"Ugly" and "Bargain" grade stuff from KEH was my bread and butter. I think that my full Mamiya RZ67 system, including a metering prism and some really awesome lenses (including the luscious 110mm f/2 lens, the 140mm f/4.5 FLE macro, and the 180mm f/4.5), was less than $400. Mamiya's 180mm f/4.5, both the RB and RZ versions, is the best lens I've ever used in over 20 years of photography. My second favorite is the gloriously fast and imperfect Minolta 58mm f/1.4 -- it's like a 10th of the cost of the f/1.2 version, is way easier to use, and has a better rendering IMO. My third favorite lens is the 50mm f/2 Schneider Xenon lens that comes attached to a Retina IIa -- a camera I've previously mailed to New Zealand for repair.

The limits of my camera repair skills start and end with the Argus C3. ;-)

Your story sounds fascinating @nickelsilver!

(Oh, and for photography geeks: my Avatar is a cyanotype printed on cloth from an iPhone shot I converted into a digital negative (printed in negative on transparent paper with pigment inks) with added embroidery. It's NSFW, but my photography portfolio is at https://www.iggybug.com/)

Edited September 10, 2020 by dpn

[dpn]

 

32 minutes ago, AndyHull said:

Maybe we should start a new thread related to camera repair. I have one or two specimens that needed some TLC when I picked them up from various flea markets and jumble sales. I even have a medium format, and a large tripod that were recovered from two separate skips (dumpsters).

The PowerShot A2200 is one of a bunch of damaged Canons I picked up for pennies on ebay a while back when I was active on the CHDK development forum and Wiki. You may recognise this guy.   https://chdk.setepontos.com/index.php?topic=10728.10 

I'd be down for a camera repair thread!

And I've been interested in experimenting with a pair of inexpensive P&S cameras that I could somehow sync for stereo photography. Dang, now I need to research how cheaply I can score a couple of A2200s (and whether there's already a turnkey sync cable of some sort).

See, e.g, this 3D printable stereo rig. It'd be great for still lifes, but would need some sort of sync utility for other stereophotography.

... It's good to be a nerd, and to find like-minded nerds on the Internet. This forum is awesome.

Edited September 10, 2020 by dpn

[AndyHull]

There is a bunch of stuff on the subject of syncing multiple cameras on the CHDK forum, this thread for example.

https://chdk.setepontos.com/index.php?topic=8810.0

 

[dpn]

Awesome Andy, I’ll check out that forum!

 

... back on topic:

 

The Zenith’s dial is fine. *phew* I was really worried about crystal gasket goo on it.

 

The bad news is that it needs a new canon pinion. I don’t doubt that it does, but I’m curious as to how it became damaged after sitting in a safe for nearly 50 years. Any ideas?

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[aac58]

10 hours ago, dpn said:

... to bring this at least a little bit back on topic, I did recently learn that the active ingredient in "One Dip" cleaner is the same active ingredient in those old anti-static film cleaners that used to be popular (Edwal, ECCO, etc.). It's TCE ... fairly nasty stuff.

Yes, One Dip is 99% trichlorethylene, now forbidden. I have no idea about B-Dip, the new Mobius mix that replaces One Dip.

I never tried One Dip so I can't compare, but I've got some perchlorethylene (aka perch, tetrachlorethylene) and I started to use it for a final clean of the hair spring. I think it works but definetly needs a rinse of a few seconds in IPA before drying with the air blower.

[Nucejoe]

That is a big plus, you got a good dial you got a watch.

What is with the canon pinion, how about a close up. 

 

[AndyHull]

Back on the other track for a moment, this just appeared on my interweb radar.

The man who owned 3,000 cameras

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53821146

The location isn't far from here, so once the covid crisis settles down, I'll need to pay it a visit.

I have quite a few cameras, but nowhere near the number in this collection.

Anyway.. Back on topic.  Canon pinions. Without a closeup of the damage, I can only speculate.

Corrosion, wear and/or physical damage by some previous repaired would seem the most likely causes of failure.

[dpn]

@aac58 Looks like I can still get the 99.9% TCE One-Dip in the US. I can't buy benzene, toulene, or xylene in California anymore, for what it's worth. I had to drive four hours round trip to Nevada to buy xylene for another project.

I'll be calling the watch repair person shortly, and I'll ask him for a photo of the cannon pinion. Here's what he mentioned by e-mail:

Quote

Your cannon pinion is very weak, it can barely take any more pressure right now, and it won't last if I'm trying to repair it. In my experience with this model and part, they tend to break easily because of their material. So instead of trying to repair something that will break very easily in the future, I prefer to change it." He's charging me $49 for the cannon pinion, which is a drop in the bucket for the overall repair, so I'm good paying it just out of a sense of caution.

I did get a closeup of the dial. It looks like there is *very* subtle damage from the goo at 51 minutes and 53 minutes, but still ecstatic that it looks as good as it does. I don't think the spot at 51 minutes will be visible when the dial is installed, and the smudge at 53 is so subtle as to be practically unnoticeable!

[dpn]

23 hours ago, AndyHull said:

There is a bunch of stuff on the subject of syncing multiple cameras on the CHDK forum, this thread for example.

https://chdk.setepontos.com/index.php?topic=8810.0

 

Andy, thanks for cluing me in on that forum. I was vaguely aware that folks were releasing open source hacks (in the positive sense of the term) that improved the functionality of cameras that were software-crippled. I'm researching it with interest, and will be picking up a set of Canon P&S cameras in order to sync them for stereoscopic photography. (I've just got to determine which specific Canon model will best suit my needs.)

This is outstanding. The last time I remember reading about synced P&S cameras for stereo photography, they required a physical cable and some soldering on the circuit boards of the cameras themselves. It looks like things have significantly progressed since then!

[dpn]

Very brief update: My A3642 (dated to '71 instead of '72) is back from service. It's still all original, it's keeping great time (+2s/day in five positions), and the total service cost and time were both reasonable (just under $600 total and 3 weeks). 

I'm a happy camper now.

[Tudor]

That's what I would have done.

Any "after" pictures?

[dpn]

23 minutes ago, Tudor said:

Any "after" pictures?

Lots, but I'm waiting to do a "real" photoshoot with better lighting, etc. I haven't decided whether to keep or sell this watch; I do love it, but I'm putting all of my energy and resources into my custom dial project.

This video made me really happy.

 

[Tudor]

Yeah, I’d say that’s acceptable performance.  

[dpn]

I got around to doing the "glamour-shots" photography of this watch. I love it. Thanks all for walking me through the caseback opening process, and encouraging me to work through a local/DIY solution rather than sending it to the Zenith factory for an expensive and lengthy repair.

[Tudor]

Fantastic watch.