Hairspring not level

[arron]

Hello from eastern Oregon , USA. 

I am in the process of killing another watch.  i am working on the 6498 movement that is used in Mark Lovick's watch repair class.  i've put it together several times and had a hard time getting the balance assembly installed. i believe in the process i tweeked (in a bad way) the hairspring.  now, when installed, the hairspring does not hang level, but it tilts to one side enough to where it appears to be touching the balance wheel arms as they pass under the spring.  needless to say, the watch will no longer run.

the spring does not sit perfectly round and on one side the coils are closer to each other than the other side.  i don't see any twists or kinks in the spring.  

any ideas on how to fix this problem.  i've attached some pics.  thanks for any advice. 

[jdm]

11 hours ago, arron said:

any ideas on how to fix this problem. 

Hairsping work, or manipulation is the nightmare of any beginner and even quite advanced repairers.

You can't expect, and it would not be right, that here on the occasion of your problem, (which is identical to the one that most others, including myself, have had various times), the best guide will appear. At most, you will get some incomplete advice, empaty, links, etc.

Please do what everyone should, search in the box top right for "hairspring manipulation", start reading, watch the linked videos and search for more, and why not, buy some books. Just don't spend too much time on that because you will need it, and lot of, to practice. We're talking about many hours of stressing work.

Sorry to be blunt, if you want the best chances for that watch to run decently again, start looking for a new balance complete

[Klassiker]

Lots and lots of practice. Good luck!

[rodabod]

Since you haven’t got much to lose, pop the stud out of the balance cock and see if you can re-evaluate where the bend may be. It looks to me like you may only have one bend, and that would be most likely at the stud or the volley. 

[Nucejoe]

Is the collet removable? if so , take the hairspring off of balance, lay it on a white sheet of paper on a flat surface, show us pictures.

If removable!  this coil can easily be sorted out.

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, jdm said:

Hairsping work, or manipulation is the nightmare of any beginner and even quite advanced repairers.

 

6 hours ago, Klassiker said:

Lots and lots of practice. Good luck!

ideally with hairspring work it would be nice to have disposable watches with disposable balance wheels. Because you really should practice on something you don't care about. If you look on eBay you should bill if I am lots of broken watches as long as it has a hairspring you don't care what it is cheaper the better he gives you something to practice with deliberately bended see what it looks like bend it back. The only way anyone gets good at anything is to practice preferably not in something you care about.

Then not that I like to be different but your problem is in the watch not out of the watch it be really good if you can evaluate the problem in the watch as to where you perceive the problem is. Often times taking the balance out of the watch the problem will go away. Such as if your bent at the stud typically it will look fine out of the watch. Or if you take it entirely often have the hairspring all by itself typically it's going to look fine. Especially once again if it's bad at the stud it's really hard to see a band that the stud out of the watch. So I would study it very carefully in the watch and then if you want to take it out take it out.

They usually the hairspring gets bent either at the stud or the regulator pins because when you lift the bridge out or do something with the balance is resisting whatever you're trying to do to it that is where the band will occur. Not to say that you can't have inappropriate in the middle of the hairspring and all sorts of other creative things but usually the stud is the most likely place where you're going to bend it.

[arron]

Thank you watch friends for the advice and encouragement.  Be well.

[Nucejoe]

Inner coil looks good in the second picture, the problem is likely to be in the terminal curve region, which usually are simple to fix.  Even if its a non- removable collet, terminal curve can be reshaped if not right there inside the movement certainly when out. Just take out the balance complete if you will and show the coil.

Regards 

joe

[Jin999]

Hi,

If it's not magnetise then the balance have to remove to reshape the coil. You need a pair of steady hand and great patience for the job.

 

I had screw up a few hairsprings before I manage to reshape 1.

 

Good luck

[jdm]

1 hour ago, Jin999 said:

If it's not magnetise then the balance have to remove to reshape the coil. You need a pair of steady hand and great patience for the job.

 

That's for sure but practically speaking one also needs an holed block, hairspring removal levers, and one, better two, No. 5 tweezers.

One can do with something else as well, but should practice with the above until proficient enough to choose or make his own tools.

[Jin999]

On 10/4/2020 at 4:18 PM, jdm said:

That's for sure but practically speaking one also needs an holed block, hairspring removal levers, and one, better two, No. 5 tweezers.

One can do with something else as well, but should practice with the above until proficient enough to choose or make his own tools.

Yes.. Correct tools is essential for the repair 

[les13]

Mark has several good videos on YouTube about different aspects of hairspring manipulation. Warning: He makes it look much easier than it is. I have been trying to learn this skill. So far, I am not even close to being acceptable. Good luck.

[ifibrin]

On 10/3/2020 at 3:50 AM, arron said:

Hello from eastern Oregon , USA. 

I am in the process of killing another watch.  i am working on the 6498 movement that is used in Mark Lovick's watch repair class.  i've put it together several times and had a hard time getting the balance assembly installed. i believe in the process i tweeked (in a bad way) the hairspring.  now, when installed, the hairspring does not hang level, but it tilts to one side enough to where it appears to be touching the balance wheel arms as they pass under the spring.  needless to say, the watch will no longer run.

the spring does not sit perfectly round and on one side the coils are closer to each other than the other side.  i don't see any twists or kinks in the spring.  

any ideas on how to fix this problem.  i've attached some pics.  thanks for any advice. 

Did you manage to fix this issue? I was facing almost exactly the same problem and I thought the problem was a magnetized hairspring at first. However, demagnetizing the balance complete or movement didn’t make any difference.

In my case, the bunched up section of the hairspring was opposite the start of the terminal curve when the balance cock was assembled. I realized that when the balance was lying on top of the balance cock (upside down) a small distance away from the pivot, all the coils of the hairspring were concentric, indicating that the hairspring was not magnetized, and the shape was correct. Rather, the middle of the hairspring (the collet) wasn’t held the correct position from the hairspring stud.

surprisingly, just gently nudging the terminal curve of the hairspring was sufficient to get it to move the entire hairspring such that the collet seats over the pivot hole with all the coils concentric. I think it’s somewhat surprising how sensitive the coil is to slight manipulation, considering that you can let it hang from the balance cock which stretches the coil substantially more than the slight nudges I gave.

[jdm]

1 hour ago, ifibrin said:

 you can let it hang from the balance cock which stretches the coil substantially more than the slight nudges I gave.

Far from being a sure "you can", it's a dangerous practice taken by some only, without any proven good reason. 

[ifibrin]

1 hour ago, jdm said:

Far from being a sure "you can", it's a dangerous practice taken by some only, without any proven good reason. 

Oh I wasn't aware that it wasn't a universally accepted practice. Does that mean tools like these should be used very sparingly?

[jdm]

1 minute ago, ifibrin said:

Oh I wasn't aware that it wasn't a universally accepted practice. Does that mean tools like these should be used very sparingly?

Not at all is my opinion. If you want to read the previous discussions Google:

site: watchrepairtalk.com "balance tack" 

[mikepilk]

6 hours ago, ifibrin said:

Oh I wasn't aware that it wasn't a universally accepted practice. Does that mean tools like these should be used very sparingly?

I've always been wary about using the balance tack (especially on older hairsprings which seem easier to distort), but if you need to adjust the beat by turning the collet, you need to use it - unless you take the balance off, but that risks damage too. 

My fix to minimise risk of distortion is to use foam to stop the spring extending too much :

I change the height of the foam as necessary. The balance can sit on the surface of the foam, allowing you to turn the collet without having to hand hold the balance.

 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by mikepilk

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

I've always been wary about using the balance tack (especially on older hairsprings which seem easier to distort), but if you need to adjust the beat by turning the collet, you need to use it - unless you take the balance off, but that risks damage too. 

what do you mean by take the balance off?

[mikepilk]

35 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

what do you mean by take the balance off?

I mean, to turn the collet, remove the hairspring stud and take the balance off the cock. How do you do it ?

[JohnR725]

7 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

remove the hairspring stud and take the balance off the cock.

I just wanted the clarification because? someone was pointing out Mark has a video and in this video he shows removing the entire hairspring with collet of course from the balance to put it in beat. That's why wanted a clarification of what exactly are you taking off. Personally because I'm working with American pocket watches and the easy to take off it's much easier to remove the balance with hairspring rotate the collet and they make tools for this and then put it back together I've never had a hairspring issue because of doing this. Stretching it from the balance tack trying to rotated and have control of what you're doing just didn't seem like it be in my best interest.

As far as the balance tack goes that is usually a lathe project for schools and beyond that I considered a lethal weapon? this is because I have a fear of somehow bumping into a pointy object on the bench. Which is why mine is safely hidden away in the bench where it's been ever since I got a bench.

my prior experience with using it was in school. The particular school took in the watches so they were not training watches the real watches and my experience was especially with omega they hairsprings were soft and they always ended up distorted. Maybe not always but that's the memory. So I personally think hanging a balance wheel stretching the hairspring is a bad idea.

[mikepilk]

If I have to take the hairspring off, I use Mark's technique, but unless I'm lucky, it usually needs a tweak.

I agree that older hairsprings seem 'soft', which is why I started using the foam to limit stretch. Modern balances seem more tolerant to damage from stretching.

Lethal weapons ? - I've stabbed myself multiple times, which is why I now stick a rubber on the end ( , that's an 'eraser' to our American friends)

[arron]

mikepilk,

boy did the middle part of that last line conjure up an image in my head and then, as i read on, a warm chuckle.  thanks for a laugh in the late afternoon. i needed that.

[Watcher]

Lots of hot air here. Most (all) watch repairers sometimes have to adjust the hairspring alignment after assembly by tweaking the spring at the stud using No 5 tweezers. Lifting often improves horizontal alignment and bending is the way to set the spiral. These very small tweaks are an acquired skill.

[Nucejoe]

I agree with watcher, adjusting the H/S after assembly is a must skil.