Slow to no amplitude on everything

[TimeBear]

Hi everyone. I’m really starting to get disheartened because every single piece I work on after cleaning reassembling and everything else ends up having extremely low amplitude. I have watched all of the courses made by Mark and a plethora of YouTube videos but still cannot figure out what I am doing wrong it seems rather consistently. Working on many Seiko movements it seems that when I take them apart and put them back together after a thorough cleaning using rather expensive watch cleaning solutions in an ultrasonic cleaner, I cannot seem to improve the performance of the time pieces at a maximum and normally can’t get them running at all. Has anyone else had gone through this? 
 

I find it fascinating and relaxing at the same time. I am starting to believe that maybe I don’t have a necessary skill set to do this. Can someone please chime in and let me know if they’ve experienced the same things and also what they did to remedy the issue. I feel like no matter what I do everything doesn’t work. I have ordered multiple beautiful time pieces online and while they come in relatively working order they definitely need servicing. However my actions always seem to degrade the performance by having extremely low amplitude. Every watch I work on a start and then stop when I move it to another position. I’ve tried everything, inspecting the jewels, Oiling of the parts with very expensive Mobius oils, and also ensuring that I sparingly do so. Please advise I really would appreciate any input here.

Edited December 11, 2020 by TimeBear
Misspelling watch brand

[Nucejoe]

Welcome to the forum.

Most friction in escapement is at escape teeth running on pallets. 

Put a bit of Kerosene or diesel fuel on escape teeth, you would see surprising jump in amplitude. 

Fork arbour and it jewels should be clean and unlubed.

Check all end shakes, most important of all on balance staff.

I work on hairspring once installed, to get the coil level and flat, even on new balance completes.

Do you remove shock spring, end stones and chaton, gives additional bath and peg?

Do you makes sure impulse jewel is in beat?

I stick balance pivots into a tooth pick, turn the tooth pick, add a bit of lighter fluid as I turn.

Drop the flat side of end stone on a piece of card board pour a bit of lighter fluid on it whilst you put you finger on the endstone, scrub the flat side on the card board, nothing short of a perfect glittering shine is acceptable. 

Examine balance jewels under high magnification.

Stay tuned and ask questions. 

Regs Joe

 

[watchweasol]

Well you have had good advice from Joe to act upon,  Do you use or have a timegrapher ?  do you test the watches before treatment and record the Amplitude and again after and what sort of loss values do you get.

[rodabod]

Your watches should run reasonably even when unlubricated, if they are in good condition. The most common issue I can think of is bent hairsprings (especially relatively soft Seiko ones).

[AshF]

and don't be disheartened.  I know it's tough at the beginning and also if you've had a run of fails.  But the highs far outway the lows.  Stick with it and you will be rewarded.

[TimeBear]

Thanks all... I will try the aforementioned steps and let you know if I get it running. I appreciate it!

[JohnR725]

9 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Well you have had good advice from Joe to act upon,  Do you use or have a timegrapher ?  do you test the watches before treatment and record the Amplitude and again after and what sort of loss values do you get.

Usually what I like to recommend for beginners is to purchase the Chinese clone of a Swiss pocket watch movement. The same one that Mark uses in his course. Then a timing machine today is inexpensive at an absolute must have. Because then you can take your brand-new movement and check it out. Then practice taking it apart putting it back together and verifying that still running the way it was before you took it apart

Then as a minor reminder cleaning doesn't fix all problems. So if you're Seiko watches were running before and you had a timing machine verified that then they should be doing equal or better after cleaning. But if they were having an issue before cleaning may not fix the issue.

18 hours ago, TimeBear said:

thorough cleaning using rather expensive watch cleaning solutions in an ultrasonic cleaner,

Then expensive cleaning fluids like professional fluids? They clean really well but you only want to have them in the Cleaning solution for a couple of minutes especially if it has ammonia in it. Professional watch cleaning fluids clean really well  that going past a few minutes they start to etch things and that does not make for good running watch.

Then looking at your title no amplitude means the watch is totally dead? Low amplitude means what to you? The reason I ask is Seiko's classically have very low amplitudes. It's just the way they are made and if you think cleaning them you're somehow going to make them better it isn't going to happen. This is where it's back to a timing machine you need to have a before and after to see if you're having a problem.

[TimeBear]

I use the ultrasonic cleaner for a short while 3 minutes with the cleaner (Zenith Radiant 777 Ultimate Watch and Clock Cleaning Solution) and then 4 minutes with the rinse (Zenith Drizebrite Watch and Clock Final Rinse). 

Additionally, I've found using a microscope is an excellent way to position the wheel pinions into the jewel holes and use an application on my phone as well as the Tg application on my computer for consensus regarding timing. As it turns out now, it stopped moving at all. 

What I am seeing is that when I work with Seiko movements, tightening the screws on the wheel bridge causes the movement to stop. I am not talking crazy tight, just taught more or less. Loosening the screws so they still move freely allows the wheels to run (but I don't feel comfortable leaving them this way as they most certainly would work their way out over time).

Is there something that can cause this? Is this specific to Seiko movements? I can work on the Chinese clone movements 6497 and 6498 without any issues.

Thanks again, there is something so relaxing about taking these apart and reassembling them. I appreciate your time and help!

Edited December 17, 2020 by TimeBear

[JohnR725]

25 minutes ago, TimeBear said:

What I am seeing is that when I work with Seiko movements, tightening the screws on the wheel bridge causes the movement to stop. I am not talking crazy tight, just taught more or less. Loosening the screws so they still move freely allows the wheels to run (but I don't feel comfortable leaving them this way as they most certainly would work their way out over time).

Is this all Seiko movements to work on or only one Seiko movement?

Then yes the screws are supposed to be down tight.

Had to do a quick read through the entire discussion and

On 12/11/2020 at 1:17 AM, Nucejoe said:

Check all end shakes, most important of all on balance staff.

If you look at Seiko for instance your plate is covering quite a few wheels and it is thinner then the 6497. It's possible if you push too hard when you putting the wheels in that you may have actually Bent the plate. Another thing that can happen is if the watch doesn't have jewels for all the holes and you push hard on the plate to can actually raise burgers possibly in the hole itself.

Then for this discussion when I went back reading it quickly we can see a generic pattern that you're having a problem with all of your watches. What makes it sometimes easier to troubleshoot individual watches because the unfortunate common problem then in all of your watches would be you're doing something wrong.

Some might be helpful to just pick one problem watch and post pictures and whatever we go through that one watch rather than a generic whole bunch of things otherwise we end up with lots and lots of ideas that may or may not be helpful for the particular problem.

So in the particular example I quoted above take the balance wheel out take the pallet fork out. With the screws loose manually wind the watch I assume the gear train Spins nicely? Then adjust the screws tightening them a little bit do it again and keep going until it stops spinning. Then I find my finest oiler works really well go in and check the end shake of all the wheels see which one is tight. Then once you've done that will look at the problem again

 

 

[Nucejoe]

How about letting us work with you from start to end of the next project you pick up. 

Not a bad idea, ha.      what do you say? 

[TimeBear]

I have subscribed the lesson 3 from Mark's lessons and finally figured out what I was doing wrong. Somehow during the cleaning process (I reattach the balance complete to the main plate before washing) the impulse jewel is not in beat at all. Mark's excellent courses helped me go step-by-step through the diagnostic process and I was able to rotate the collar and align correctly to get it in beat.

Nucejoe had originally mentioned "is the watch in beat?". I initially dismissed this as "how could I tell since it isn't running?". Goes to show that any advice is worth a try and not to get ahead of the basics.

Thank you all! My faith is restored and I think I have found a new lifelong hobby!

[spectre6000]

Glad you've found a solution. 

Here's a thought: check out the 404 Club. I was in a very similar position very recently where it seemed like everything I touched ended up in a worse state than it started. I've been playing the 404 Club game though, and if I have no more than $5 in any given failure it doesn't hurt my feelings all that much. I can even write a lot of them off as "probably worn out and borked up before I got it anyway" if I'm really feeling down about it.  Save the watches you actually like/have some money in for when you've managed to improve a few.

[Nucejoe]

3 hours ago, TimeBear said:

"is the watch in beat"  "how could I tell since it isn't running?"

A test to find out if impulse is in beat when movement isn't running.

- Release all barrel power through the click so fork wont be charged with any force to deliver to impulse jewel/ pin, then obviously balance would not run but stops. then turn balance wheel manually, by tweezers etc, whilst you keep an eye on fork, at some point fork starts to move, which indicates impulse has come to engage with fork's crown/ horn , you can also see pallets engaging with escape wheel.

Impulse jewel/balance wheel  is in beat if impulse jewel is inside of fork horn as balance wheel comes to rest( without any external force acting on oscilator  including the fork).

This is enough for the escapement to do its job and energize the oscilator, though some error is inevitable, timegrapher will then show you the beat error.

A step furthur is to observe pallet do a drop, that is where you want fork to deliver energy to impulse jewel so to maximize the amplitude.

We all are learning here, without asking you wont get a response.

Good luck pal.