Cuckoo Clock

[Michael1962]

This is what 35 years in Darwin's (NT, Australia) weather does to the inside and the outside of a cuckoo clock.

The clock is getting packed up in Darwin this weekend and will be coming down to me. I have only just noticed that the LHS window treatment doesn't appear to be there either. My brother hasn't shown it any of the photos either.

I have just sent a text to my brother re the pendulum and the weights. Also not shown in the photos.

I can't remember completely what it did.

I know it cuckooed on the hour and played a tune. While the tune played, a waterwheel on the LHS down the bottom turned. It has an odd shaped piece of wood in it and as the wheel turns, it makes what looks like a stream of watr move up and down. Cute.

I am just hoping that the whole clock body has not succumbed to the weather and humidity.

I'm not much on Darwin. This is just another reason why.

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by Michael1962

[oldhippy]

That is what I would call a modern movement, very dirty and it looks like some re-bushing will be needed on the escape wheel and the rest of the train. Just be careful not to bend the wires out of shape.  

[Michael1962]

What determines 'modern'? 49 years not enough to be considered 'old' then? 

Edited December 14, 2020 by Michael1962

[Michael1962]

What is the available tolerance is there in the movement plate holes to the pivots?

What is allowable and what constitutes needing a rebushing?

[oldhippy]

39 minutes ago, Michael1962 said:

What determines 'modern'? 49 years not enough to be considered 'old' then? 

Some sellers on ebay call a clock that is only 10 years old an antique. It alway used to be over 100 years old, 49 to me is still modern its just a term I use. 

If the hole doesn't have a nice round shape you need to look into it and the pivots. If the escape wheel holes are worn this will affect the depth  of the pallets which will also affect the swing, if it is too shallow the clock will stop this applies to any clock that has a escape wheel and a pendulum. 

[Michael1962]

I was hoping to leave rebushing to my second lesson. Well I suppose it will be, right after the disassembly and cleaning (by hand) lesson.

[watchweasol]

Hi  If you place the pivot in its bearing and the wheel leans over from the vertical, ,    more than approx 2 to 3 deg its worn.    try wiggling it in the bearing the hole may be round and still worn also check the pivot for wear it may need polishing. No piont putting a worn pivot into a newly bushed bearing.

[Michael1962]

Thanks for that. The mechanical aspect of rebutting I understand. The part that I am curious about is about knowing where the axis actually sits?

I suppose it is picked up by keeping hole concentric with any oil recess?

[watchweasol]

Hi  There is a tool called the preacher which you can use to triangulate the hole, If the hole is worn concetric its not too bad but if its ovoid then you have to open the hole on the opposite side so the reamer/broach doesnt wander.       a couple of links below explain it better.

 

 

https://www.davewestclocks.co.uk/Bushing.clock.plates.htm

 

[Michael1962]

Thanks for all of the advice guys.

When bushing, is it normal practice to remove everything from the movement plates, basically join them with nothing in between them (if that makes sense), broach/ream both plates and bush both or does one just do only those holes that show as worn? I presume that you could use any good holes to give you the centres of the worn holes.

There is a part of my fitter & machinist brain which says do them as pairs.

Yes/No?

I have watched several YouTube videos of people rebushing clock plates, but there does not seem to be much science behind it? Maybe I am missing something?

I understand the concept of the Preacher tool, but it appears to just use the worn hole as a start point. The two indents then would end up putting the third hole out of place wouldn't they?

[watchweasol]

Hi  It does seem a bit hit and miss but done carefully by hand its quite simple The science is whwn you use a bushing tool (Bergeon) expensive if you don't do a lot of bushing.   Remove everthing from the plate for easy handling the center wheel I leave in unless its the one to be bushed and if when checking which needs to be bushed check both holes with their respective pivots, They usually wear on the side carrying the most power if both show signs of wear change both.

The preacher comes into it own when fitting a blind bush into a worn hole,  Having triangulated  the position and drilled and fitted the bush you need to position the new hole. Using the two previously marked dints you can mark the new hole point drill and broach to size.  A point to note is that when hand broaching the broaches are tapered so work from both sides for a parallel hole

http://www.abbeyclock.com/Broach5.html         This link has a good description on bushing and what to look for.

[Michael1962]

So another question.

The clock has not got here yet. Brother having trouble finding a box that he is happy with to put the clock in. Did I already say that I am not much on Darwin?

What is an unacceptable hole size that would require a rebushing or is it as simple as 'if it is out of round (most likely), rebush.'

I have my sports car up for sale, and more than likely my synthesisers (+), and I am going to reinvest in tools for clocks and watches. Better late than never.

[watchweasol]

Hi  A hole is deemed worn either it bring out of shape or out of round by the fact that if you fit the wheel in error into its pivot hole and it lt leans more than 3/3degrees from the verticle so in that case needs a rebush.  I noticed that the case pictures  showed delamination of the ply,  PVA wood glue in an old syringe and squirted in then clamped will do the job.  As you are seeking tools, the attached list is for watches but many of the tools crossover.        cheers

1612608791_ToolsfortheHobbyist.pdf

[KarlvonKoln]

I am still learning about these clocks also.  May I ask if I understood something correctly which I'd heard a while ago:
This being a weight-driven clock and, with the movement mounted to the front on the dial-side, I read someplace that this arrangement can impart disproportionate wear on pivots sometimes.  So is there a chance that Michael1962 may only need to rebush the backplate?  I know it's nothing you'd want to *count on* but I could see where it might be the case here.
 

[oldhippy]

 Wear mostly occurs due to dried up oil, when the wheels rotate in dry holes dirt is also present and will cause sometimes wear on the pivots and its more common to the holes, brass is harder than steel. The more modern the clock it is more likely to be what looks like brass, certainly not the real hard stuff from way back. I have restored hundreds of long case clocks which are weight driven and wear occurs in both plates.   

I can tell you central heating is not good for any clock as it a form of dry heat and will soon cause damage so never stand or hang a clock near gas/ electric radiators. 

[Michael1962]

Hi, brass is harder than steel? I thought it would be the other way around? Hence why the pivots wear out their associated holes?

I have the cuckoo clock here now, but I want make a video of taking it out of the wrapping so everyone can see what I am up against. My brother suggested buying a new movement, but I am a 'fix it' person.

And now I have a bunch of questions.

I will have to clean the movement. What is the best way to do this? I currently do not have an ultrasonic cleaner and as it is for me, doing it by hand maybe gets me more familiar with what I am dealing with. Very hard to repair something if you are not familiar with the fragility of things. I am sure that I have read somewhere that people clean brass movement parts in ammoniated solution. Is this correct?

Rebushing. As @oldhippy has said from the photos, it looks like I may have some of this on my hands to do. Is this doable without a rebushing tool? I have seen a lot of things on the internet with people preparing the bushing hole with a handheld drill (No. I will NOT do that). Another guy drilling plates out with a pedestal drill that he'd slowed down with a modification that he had done. The end result was that the spindle was turning way too slowly for a drill. Ok, it's only brass that he was drilling, but the point still remains. Can you use just a pedestal drill with a normal piece of stock bar in the chuck and then use the movement of the drill press like a press to push the bushing in? I was looking at buying the small pedestal setup for my Dremel (yes I know you don't like them @oldhippy) but I am not sure how easy it would be to use as a 'pushing' press? Any good tool used badly does not make it a bad tool.

I have seen the filing from the centre in the opposite direction from the wear. As best as I can tell, this is only to assist the drill with staying on centre to the hole when drilling. Any lack of centre though, and most drill will wander a bit. If that happens, subsequent reaming etc will be off centre as well. The two good sides of the hole being what then determines the centre or aids in finding the centre. I understand how the Preacher tool would greatly assist with a blind bush. Funny. When I was doing my apprenticeship as a fitter, a broach was generally not a finishing tool, a reamer was. Seems to be the other way around with regard to clocks.

I can only assume that if the wear has damaged the hole to the point of not being able to find the centre, then depthing using the gears in some way which I have not greatly thought about yet, is how you would find the centre since most gears in a clock mesh with two others.

I have a lot of learning to do this, but am looking forward to it immensely. There is no better feeling than restoring something back to as new, or as close as you can get it if that is what you want.

I am also going to do some searching on here as well for information. Then, the harder road of convincing the wife that buying some things will be good to do. In the long run.............

Edited December 28, 2020 by Michael1962

[Michael1962]

Oh, and I presume if one wants to polish/burnish pivots, you are going to need either a lathe (easiest) or a pedestal drill. More difficult I would think?

Is it alright to think that adding dimple holes to plates using a Preacher tool is not the 'nicest' way?

Edited December 28, 2020 by Michael1962

[oldhippy]

Brass is not harder then steel. The trouble with any power tool is you can not put back what it has done, using your hand tools you have control. 

 Horolene to clean the movement is what I used in my time, I think cheaper ones are available.

Hand re bushing is best you don't need those fancy re bushing tools. Using five sided cutting broaches will auto find the center of the hole just a little practice is needed  If you want advice what to get just ask me. Never use a punch to close holes, you are more likely to cause more damage. 

[watchweasol]

Hi Michael       Cleaning the clock plates and wheels can be done by hand with any propriety clock cleaner, I use Priory Polishes Clock cleaner.  Once done inspection of the plates to determine the next move (Bushing worn holes) As explained by OldHippy this can be done by hand and is better tan using drills etc, you have more control. The thing is observe and be careful trying the fit of the bush after every turn of the broach or so untill the bush just sits in the hole then press in, for this I use a drill press with a hard broad punch in the jaws as the pressure is then even. Once the bushes fitted try the wheel in question with its adjacent wheel in the plate for depth and rotation, do this with every bush you fit. when done assemble the clock and free run the train manually.  When reading all the bushing material use it as a guide to the process not to be followed verbatim as each clock is different, plate thickness, hard brass , soft brass thin plates like the cuckoo clock if not supported properly will distort  so the essence here is take your time be careful and enjoy the experience  It will stand you in good stead with the next job you do.      Happy New Year  and all the best

 

[Michael1962]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the replies. I thought I had posted from my laptop last night to say to @oldhippy that he had left out the 'not' in his post about brass and steel earlier on.

I am hoping to unpack the clock today so hopefully will post something up later on. First video with me talking and I don't send the same recorded as in my head. lol

[watchweasol]

Look forward to hearing from you    all the best

[oldhippy]

One of my best friends used to say to me have you been cleaning the S H I T out of the cuckoo clocks today. 

[Michael1962]

Question on bushing if I might.

I am thinking that if you had to rebush a hole in a plate, that the bush size would be determined by the oil well in the plate? Or do bushes get put in sometimes that are smaller than the diameter of the oil well and are pushed through the plate slightly so that the oil well remains as it should?

[watchweasol]

the size of the bush is determined by the size of the pivot, depending on the manufacturer of the bush, The oil well can be reinstated using a drill bit in a pin vice by hand and once done the bush becomes invisible.  The watchword is be carefull at all times. Its easy to remove material during bushing but you cant put it back thats why  you measure the bush diameter and mark th broach correspondingly so that as you approach the mark try the fit after each turn untill the bush just fits in the hole then press in.

[Michael1962]

Ok, so I got to take the clock out of it's packaging today. I couldn't get my camera to take any sort of worthwhile video so that is out.

Here's a list of things and please remember that I am new to this so I have more than likely missed things. I have to admit that I am wondering if this is worth doing.

Front left window has lost the shutter and flower box decoration.

Both bellows need to be replaced. Dried and split. I don't know if the music box still works. As far as any of the movement plate pivot holes go, until I can get my garage cleaned up so that I can create a workspace for myself (my bloody home office is taking up my second desk in my study) I won't be able to clean the movement up and then check things out. I tried scratching my nail across the back plate of the movement and I could not get the dirt/tarnish? to budge.

All 3 chains and hooks need to be replaced. Rusty. I can think of no way to restore them. The weights should be able to be cleaned up and possibly repainted. They seem ok.

The two side roof panels have separated between the ply layers. The front part of the roof has completely delaminated into four pieces. The back door has swollen and jams in the rear hole in the back of the clock and the door is also delaminating. The delaminating and the jamming I can fix, I believe. However, the further I looked at the clock body, it may need to be taken apart to correct the delaminations and then reassemble the clock body itself.

The movement securing blocks have come away from the backside of the front of the clock so the movement flops around in the body. All metal parts as well as all the wires on the clock have surface rust. Until I get them out under some decent light, I am not sure if they can be reclaimed. Sanding the surface rust off takes off the outer layer of finishing on the wire (the black) and just lets the rust start again. Any chromed metal parts are now just rusty. Small metal fabrication on the top of the pendulum. The pendulum weight 'clip' to the pendulum.

The gong on the back removable panel is covered in surface rust as well as every other part involved with that.

I am not even sure if I am going to be able to get the movement plate fixings apart yet.

My father bought the clock when he went to Germany to train with Nabalco before we moved to Gove in the Northern Territory. I was 9. That puts this clock in our family for the last 49 years.

Edited January 3, 2021 by Michael1962