Water damage cannot loosen detent screw

[LittleWatchShop]

This is a Bulova 11ALACD that had water damage.  Part of a bunch of old watches I inherited.  Step one is to remove the stem but I cannot because the detent screw is stuck.  I am scratching my head regarding a solution.  Drill it out?  Dicey.  I have applied power to the train wheels and the balance takes off, so I know there is hope for this movement.  The hands are essentially gone.  The dial is potentially salvageable but more likely needs refinishing.

Nothing invested in this, but it is a nice movement.  I can buy a new case for it and somehow solve the hands, but I gotta get it out of the case.

I dont think the current case is worth keeping, so a Dremel may be in order.

Any ideas?

[jdrichard]

4 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

This is a Bulova 11ALACD that had water damage.  Part of a bunch of old watches I inherited.  Step one is to remove the stem but I cannot because the detent screw is stuck.  I am scratching my head regarding a solution.  Drill it out?  Dicey.  I have applied power to the train wheels and the balance takes off, so I know there is hope for this movement.  The hands are essentially gone.  The dial is potentially salvageable but more likely needs refinishing.

Nothing invested in this, but it is a nice movement.  I can buy a new case for it and somehow solve the hands, but I gotta get it out of the case.

I dont think the current case is worth keeping, so a Dremel may be in order.

Any ideas?

Need pictures to really understand the problem.

[Poljot]

33 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

This is a Bulova 11ALACD that had water damage.  Part of a bunch of old watches I inherited.  Step one is to remove the stem but I cannot because the detent screw is stuck.  I am scratching my head regarding a solution.  Drill it out?  Dicey.  I have applied power to the train wheels and the balance takes off, so I know there is hope for this movement.  The hands are essentially gone.  The dial is potentially salvageable but more likely needs refinishing.

Nothing invested in this, but it is a nice movement.  I can buy a new case for it and somehow solve the hands, but I gotta get it out of the case.

I dont think the current case is worth keeping, so a Dremel may be in order.

Any ideas?

I already drew a good picture in my head and, possibly, have some ideas, but need to see your watch first (please?).

[LittleWatchShop]

Here it is from your new EE friend.

[LittleWatchShop]

The "EE friend" was directed toward JD.  Sorry for any confusion.

[KarlvonKoln]

Do you have a pin vice with a thicker handle than your screwdrivers?  You could put your screwdriver blade in that (if removable) and the thicker handle imparts greater leverage.  It often works for me.  
I also put a bit of thinner watch oil on it first, and let it seep in.  Then I have a go.

[LittleWatchShop]

6 minutes ago, KarlvonKoln said:

Do you have a pin vice with a thicker handle than your screwdrivers?  You could put your screwdriver blade in that (if removable) and the thicker handle imparts greater leverage.  It often works for me.  
I also put a bit of thinner watch oil on it first, and let it seep in.  Then I have a go.

Yes, I have many pin vices.  The torque amplitude might solve it.  I will give that some thought.

[Nucejoe]

I apply penetrating oil to the release botton, remove the winder module with rotor attached then ratchet wheel, let oil set overnight, removing barrel bridge is then a lot easier and less risky that trying to force thing. You can remove bunch of other parts as well with the movenet still inside the case.

You would then gain access to parts inside which may have gotten rusty as well, also see if you can remove the crown off of stem which would let you slide the stem through stem tube.

DO NOT FORCE ANY PART.

[VWatchie]

5 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Yes, I have many pin vices.  The torque amplitude might solve it.  I will give that some thought.

Hmm… looking at the picture it looks like a setting lever button rather than a setting lever screw? I'd follow @Nucejoe's advice.

3 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

DO NOT FORCE ANY PART.

That's generally a very sound advice. Unless you're 100 % sure the energy from the force is going to land exactly where you intend it to, force usually spells disaster.

[Flagstaff]

54 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Hmm… looking at the picture it looks like a setting lever button rather than a setting lever screw? I'd follow @Nucejoe's advice.

That's generally a very sound advice. Unless you're 100 % sure the energy from the force is going to land exactly where you intend it to, force usually spells disaster.

My thoughts exactly - doesn't look like it takes a screwdriver, only a round-ended tool to press it with. 

[watchweasol]

Hi the consensus is that it is a press to release not a screw, And as such the advice from Joe and VWatchie is in good order. Also as Joe explained, Do Not Force any part.

[LittleWatchShop]

OK, some great advice.  My dad would always tell me, "If it don't move, don't force it."  I will abide by that.

It is a screw not a push pin.  I think I referred to it as a detent which is a term normally applied to push pin type I think (I am rusty on all the correct terms).

I will remove the auto winding mechanism and apply the penetrating oil and see what happens.

[Poljot]

1 hour ago, LittleWatchShop said:

OK, some great advice.  My dad would always tell me, "If it don't move, don't force it."  I will abide by that.

It is a screw not a push pin.  I think I referred to it as a detent which is a term normally applied to push pin type I think (I am rusty on all the correct terms).

I will remove the auto winding mechanism and apply the penetrating oil and see what happens.

It's a good plan to start removing the oscillating weight and the rest of auto-winding mechanism, and the balance, etc, etc. Please note that on some Bulova movements you need to loosen that screw just by one turn or less and then push it down with the same screwdriver while slightly rotating and pulling out the stem / crown.

[Poljot]

1 hour ago, LittleWatchShop said:

It is a screw not a push pin.  I think I referred to it as a detent which is a term normally applied to push pin type I think

Supported by the Parts List for this caliber.

[LittleWatchShop]

OK, here it is with auto wind, balance wheel and pallet fork removed (latter for safety!).

As you can see...it is a mess.  Water came in through the crown where you see the most damage.

Suggestions for penetrating oil?  All I have around here presently is WD40 (I think).

Poljot: where did you find the parts list?  I was searching this morning without success.

[Poljot]

10 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

OK, here it is with auto wind, balance wheel and pallet fork removed (latter for safety!).

As you can see...it is a mess.  Water came in through the crown where you see the most damage.

Suggestions for penetrating oil?  All I have around here presently is WD40 (I think).

Poljot: where did you find the parts list?  I was searching this morning without success.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/PDF/categories/2170_Bulova 11ALA etc.pdf

[KarlvonKoln]

9 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 

DO NOT FORCE ANY PART.

Nucejo and the others are right to loudly state the above.  So I feel it necessary to clarify my earlier statement.  I sometimes resort to putting my screwdriver blades in a pin vice only for the following reasons:
1 - the handles they came with are so slender (perhaps more than most) that with many screws, I can get no real torque at all. I don't know if all watchmaker's screwdrivers are this slender but I plan to see if I can get thicker ones.  My long, spindly fingers are having trouble with them. I also make sure that I...
2 - always oil the screw in question with the thinnest oil I have, and...
3 - know which way the screw turns.  There are only a couple reasons, on a couple kinds of parts (such as a crown wheel) that a screw would turn counterclockwise, so this is not the biggest concern...unless that's what you're working on.
4 - I can generally replace that screw with a much less rusty one from my screw bins.
So to quantify: if you're gently turning the screwdriver blade, inserted into a slightly larger handle, you do get a bit of a leverage advantage, so you must be even more cautious.  If you can sense it still doesn't want to move yet, cranking down on it even harder can do damage (no surprise there I'm sure).  I have not snapped a screw head off yet myself, but I know it happens.  Somewhere in the forum are a few posts about techniques for removing broken screw shanks from their holes, and some tools designed for that purpose.  Those who've never done it should pray they don't need to.  But it's good to read about it anyway.

[Poljot]

10 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

I apply penetrating oil to the release botton, remove the winder module with rotor attached then ratchet wheel, let oil set overnight, removing barrel bridge is then a lot easier and less risky that trying to force thing. You can remove bunch of other parts as well with the movenet still inside the case.

You would then gain access to parts inside which may have gotten rusty as well, also see if you can remove the crown off of stem which would let you slide the stem through stem tube.

DO NOT FORCE ANY PART.

Really?

Aren't we "forcing" every screw while removing or installing it? Aren't we forcing a crystal into bezel? Just saying..

DO NOT FORCE ANY PART. perhaps force it a little?

Edited January 10, 2021 by Poljot

[Nucejoe]

7 minutes ago, Poljot said:

Really?

Aren't we "forcing" every screw while removing or installing it? Aren't we forcing the crystals into bezel? Just saying..

DO NOT FORCE ANY PART. perhaps force it a little?

Ha ha,    

  Whenever a screw doesn't want to come out, offer it some cocacola it will.

I just drop ( some calibers) in cocacola to soak over night, ends breaking screws, try it,

remove balance and incab jewels, drop the rest in coke, specially useful for old rusted watches.

 

 

[Poljot]

16 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Ha ha,    

  Whenever a screw doesn't want to come out, offer it some cocacola it will.

I just drop ( some calibers) in cocacola to soak over night, ends breaking screws, try it,

remove balance and incab jewels, drop the rest in coke, specially useful for old rusted watches.

 

 

Some claim that coke is excellent toilet-cleaner. I never tried as i was afraid it could permanently damage it... Dangerous stuff! However, i tried coke on a smaller scale - dropped one cent in it to soak for several minutes. WOW! It was shiny as new!

[KarlvonKoln]

White distilled vinegar works wonders too.  If a steel screw shows signs of being rusted in place, I'll remove and set aside the balance and pallet lever, and dunk that section in vinegar.  Wouldn't try it on quartz movements though.  But mechanical ones could benefit.

 

[watchweasol]

All sound tried and tested methods  just use the one that suits you, at least you can drink the rest of the coke.

[LittleWatchShop]

I will try vinegar.  You are correct regarding quartz movements.  I use vinegar to etch PC boards (a solution of vinegar and H2O2) so it is brutal on copper!

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

OK, here it is with auto wind, balance wheel and pallet fork removed (latter for safety!).

As you can see...it is a mess.  Water came in through the crown where you see the most damage.

Suggestions for penetrating oil?  All I have around here presently is WD40 (I think).

Poljot: where did you find the parts list?  I was searching this morning without success.

Ok now, remove the ratchet wheel and barrel bridge, you then see and gain direct access to the stem and can do lot more. So far so good.

If you can remove the dial, date/ day ring and balance and balance jewels, drop the rest coke, no damage whatsoever by coke 24-48 hrs. then a tooth brush and powedered detergent cleans perfect.

I disagree with vinegar for it will damage gears and most any part if soaked for long.

 

[VWatchie]

3 hours ago, Poljot said:

Please note that on some Bulova movements you need to loosen that screw just by one turn or less and then push it down with the same screwdriver while slightly rotating and pulling out the stem / crown.

The same goes for Omega calibre 268 (and likely several other calibres) which had me puzzled for a while.