Help needed with pocket watch

[Barnaby]

I'm working on a 1920s Thomas Russell which I believe has a case made by the Illinois watch Co. It has the two-part stem and the sleeve which holds one part in place.

The problem was that the stem wouldn't come out enough to enable hand-setting.

I've bought a sleeve wrench and adjusted the position of the sleeve. Now the stem can reach the hand-setting postion and the winding position, which is good.

My question is: what should be the default stem postion? At the moment, the stem/crown rests in the hand-setting position, and to wind you have to push the crown in. Note there is no click between positions like a normal wrist watch.

I'm wondering if perhaps a previous watchmaker has fitted a wrong part. As well as a yoke spring, there is also a spring acting on the setting lever pushing it in the other direction. This spring is thicker and therefore stronger than the yoke spring, which results in the stem always being in the hand-setting position. If the yoke spring were the stronger of the two, then the stem would rest in the winding position, which makes more sense to me. So perhaps the yoke spring has been previously swapped out with an insufficiently strong replacement.

I've only done a couple of pocketwatches before and haven't seen this style of keyless works before so any help would be appreciated.

[Barnaby]

anybody?

[JohnR725]

 

On 3/16/2021 at 1:59 PM, Barnaby said:

My question is: what should be the default stem postion? At the moment, the stem/crown rests in the hand-setting position, and to wind you have to push the crown in. Note there is no click between positions like a normal wrist watch.

Your watch is functioning exactly the way it's supposed to. American pocket watches and others rely on the case to function as you perceive a wristwatch would. In other words when the movement is out of the case it no longer has the stem pushing and it goes into setting mode. Running the watch in setting mode out of the case is a problem for servicing and definitely a problem for running. Some other later watches would have either a screw or a lever to put the watch back in a winding mode while servicing the movement out of the case.

So simplistic as unless your Watch is in the case it's in setting but. The only way to get it back in the winding mode is to push a square stem in and push it back into the winding mode.

Then there is no clicking in the watch itself as it relies on The sleeve sleeve. The sleeve holds the stem in either the winding of the setting position not the watch

 

[Barnaby]

I should have been clearer.

 

When I said: "At the moment, the stem/crown rests in the hand-setting position, and to wind you have to push the crown in. Note there is no click between positions like a normal wrist watch" , this is with the watch cased, not un-cased.

[JohnR725]

3 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

Note there is no click between positions like a normal wrist watch"

Anything that resembling  clicking is the result of the sleeve. If it doesn't seem to be functioning correctly you'll have to disassemble remove the sleeve and see why it's not functioning. Unfortunately they do wear out with time and finding replacements can be challenging.

[Barnaby]

Is it meant to click?

Edited March 19, 2021 by Barnaby
typo

[Barnaby]

54 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Anything that resembling  clicking is the result of the sleeve. If it doesn't seem to be functioning correctly you'll have to disassemble remove the sleeve and see why it's not functioning. Unfortunately they do wear out with time and finding replacements can be challenging.

What I mean is I'm not clear what "functioning correctly" is. Is it meant to be just like a wristwatch, i.e. winding position is the default, with "click" between winding position and hand-setting position? I cannot see anything in the keyless works or the sleeve that would provide the click.

[JohnR725]

I really not sure that were on the same page here?

Removing the movement from the case. With the crown pushed in it will be in the winding position it should stay there. If you pull it out Then you're in the setting position. It should stay there it's held by the sleeve in each of the positions. As to whether it makes a distinctive clicking sound between the two it depends on the sleeve. Clicking is not required staying in place is.

Then to help understand things better I'm attaching an image. This is your typical stem with sleeve. Typical because there's lots of variations there were lots of different styles of the sleeves and trying to get newer placement ones is challenging if not impossible. Then picture doesn't quite show something clearly the end of the sleeve is bent in word forming fingers which hold the stem. If there is any clicking sound it would be that going over the middle part in between the letters K and L. They correspond to the setting and winding positions.

If the end of the sleeve gets worn out it no longer holds. It's also possible to adjust it so that it no longer works correctly. I've seen some watches were you actually have to push into wind because it won't stay in place. If you're lucky in this situation it stays in kind of a gray area where it's neither winding are setting which is not great but better than popping out the winding position. The system works really well most of the time but when it starts going bad or somebody hasn't adjusted it correctly it can be an issue.

 

[Barnaby]

Thanks for your detailed replies, I appreciate it.

 

When I say "click" I'm not talking about a necessarily audible click, just the feeling you get from changing the position of the stem on an ordinary wristwatch. (is there a better word?)

 

From what you're saying I understand that this pocketwatch should have that. At the moment it doesn't- it can be in winding position and hand-winding position and any position inbetween.

I dont understand this:

58 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

the end of the sleeve is bent in word forming fingers which hold the stem

 

 

[JohnR725]

Not quite finding the picture I want online. In one of the pictures you can see the stem is in the sleeve. From the other pictures you can notice how the end of the sleeve tapers to a smaller diameter hole. One of the pictures I drew lines C can see where the cut of the metal is. This is like a spring steel that it's been cut the form four fingers. The fingers are what holds the stem in place.

From the sound of it your sleeve is not functioning correctly. Which you want to do is remove the crown unscrew the sleeve with the stem and pull the whole thing out and look at it carefully. More than likely what's happened is the wall fingers have worn out and they just aren't holding anymore. But we were really won't have an idea until it comes out of the case.

 

[Barnaby]

Here's the sleeve:

 

[Barnaby]

Also, do the two springs A and B look right? I'm still concerned about the fact that B is so much stronger than A

[KarlvonKoln]

It sure sounds like the tips of the fingers of the sleeve are worn.  With just the stem in the case (no movement) you should still feel the stem "click" in and out when you move it.

[JohnR725]

44 minutes ago, KarlvonKoln said:

It sure sounds like the tips of the fingers of the sleeve are worn

The description of the problem sounds exactly as described above. The picture the sleeve though it's hard to tell. Then you definitely have to have lubrication on the tips otherwise it's going to have a really hard time functioning.

Then unfortunately the sleeves do wear out with time.

[KarlvonKoln]

On 3/20/2021 at 1:45 PM, JohnR725 said:

 

Then unfortunately the sleeves do wear out with time.

Is there a way to maybe use a stake to close the sleeve fingers up a bit, as we might with a jewel hole or a hairspring collett?  I haven't tried mending a sleeve yet.  Or is it best to track down a good sleeve?