Do you epilame older (2030) Rolex reversing wheels?

[Wallace]

OK so when working with a 3135 reversing wheels for instance you have to use Epilame but my question is on the older movements do you use it? I don’t see it on any of the old service oil charts so I’m assuming you just skip it for these movements on the reversing wheels. I still do the escapement and Pallet jewels but I’ve done two of these movements (2030) now and I’m a little concerned that I didn’t use epilame, but as far as I can tell you’re not supposed to. They don’t even call for lubrifar on the 2030, if they were calling for that I was thinking of using lubeta that’s what ETA uses on its reversing wheels. I’m just wondering if someone has a clear answer to this so I don’t keep worrying about it. 

[Graziano]

Hi there  Rolex reversers come pre-treated with it  but I always re-treat after they're clean. I use it on Rolex seconds wheels so the oil doesn't spread up the shaft, on pallet jewels, and on escape wheels The escape wheel and pallet are dropped in a small container of epilame and allowed to soak for 3 or 4 minutes. The parts are removed and dried with warm air for several seconds ,  assemble the watch, oil the train and balance jewels, and let the watch run for 10 minutes or so , remove the balance and apply a very small drop of Moebius 9415 to the surface of the exit pallet jewel and reinstall the balance  under magnification, there is just a faint trace of 9415 across of the pallet jewels where the teeth of the escape wheel are sliding across .Epilame changes the surface tension of the material it comes in contact with so the lubricant wont travel to unwanted places and you must absolutely not have any oil in the teeth or ratchet mechanism of reversers. It's better to not oil the post at all, than to over-oil it So on saying that you don't want oil traveling any further than the pivots on the reversers ..over time if the oil travels into the reversers it will cause problems with the winding, which will give low amplitude and timing issues .Then you will have to strip down reversers and do it again. Maybe others will have other ideas but that's what I do with Rolex auto winding .Have a read of this https://www.watchprosite.com/page-wf.forumpost/pzt-/wf.responses_bLoB_s-/fi-17/pi-2594576/ti-432276/s-0/

Hope this helps and I hope I didn't ruin your day

Edited May 5, 2021 by Graziano

[Wallace]

9 hours ago, Graziano said:

Hi there  Rolex reversers come pre-treated with it  but I always re-treat after they're clean. I use it on Rolex seconds wheels so the oil doesn't spread up the shaft, on pallet jewels, and on escape wheels The escape wheel and pallet are dropped in a small container of epilame and allowed to soak for 3 or 4 minutes. The parts are removed and dried with warm air for several seconds ,  assemble the watch, oil the train and balance jewels, and let the watch run for 10 minutes or so , remove the balance and apply a very small drop of Moebius 9415 to the surface of the exit pallet jewel and reinstall the balance  under magnification, there is just a faint trace of 9415 across of the pallet jewels where the teeth of the escape wheel are sliding across .Epilame changes the surface tension of the material it comes in contact with so the lubricant wont travel to unwanted places and you must absolutely not have any oil in the teeth or ratchet mechanism of reversers. It's better to not oil the post at all, than to over-oil it So on saying that you don't want oil traveling any further than the pivots on the reversers ..over time if the oil travels into the reversers it will cause problems with the winding, which will give low amplitude and timing issues .Then you will have to strip down reversers and do it again. Maybe others will have other ideas but that's what I do with Rolex auto winding .Have a read of this https://www.watchprosite.com/page-wf.forumpost/pzt-/wf.responses_bLoB_s-/fi-17/pi-2594576/ti-432276/s-0/

Hope this helps and I hope I didn't ruin your day

If you look at old oil charts for the older 2030 Rolex movements they Do not call for lubrifar or epilame on the reverser. It’s not consistent because some of the charts  call for 9010 on the Rolex reversers I think for 1570 maybe. Picture below I don’t know what movement number.

 

 I use epilame and I’m fully aware of what it does but I never soak the whole pallet I just do the pallet Jewels since I read it’s not good to have epilame on the pallet pivots. Ok so For instance on a 3135 I soak the reversing wheels, the escape wheel, the pallet jewels, and seconds pinion (shaft only), I basically follow all Rolex recommendations on the service chart. But my question was on 2030 for instance should I Epilame  the reversers because they don’t call for it? I know you’re saying they came from the factory that way but did they really come from the factory on the 2030? The service charts don’t call for it and as I said above some call for oil. I would love to see a current lubrication chart for the 2030 the only ones I can find are old with old out of use oil‘s listed that I substitute for a newer synthetic, i’m sure Rolex has an updated chart for these but I have not been able to find one. 
 

[Graziano]

Hi Wallace , this is a piece from the above link "( Because watchmakers with old school training or experience are familiar with oiling old school reversers like those in an Omega 550 or ETA 2824, they think Epilame is some sort of dry lubricant. This is not correct at all ,Epilame is fundamental to proper functioning of the Rolex style reversers because their click systems in the reverser have only one pivot while the other side of the click rests flat against the inside of the reverser. Should oil find its way to this spot the reverser will fail to function properly.)" I don't think you would do harm using it 

Cheers Graziano

Edited May 5, 2021 by Graziano

[Wallace]

Thank you i’ll do it just the same way I do 3135 reversers now. I’m just curious with all the different literature out there it seems like the older movements vary on the treatment for reversing wheels. The fact that they oil some and then say oils bad to the wheels on others. Newer movements call for epilame older ones call for nothing or 9010. I have seen some people lubricate the gears on the reversing wheels for 2030 and I’m guessing it’s because some of the older movements call for lubrication so they do it on these as well. I’m not oiling the gears I’m just trying to learn more and find out why the different treatments for Rolex reversers. Is there is a logic behind it or if it has just been changing trends over time and they’ve discovered that the new treatment is the best way to handle all the reversing wheels and just ignore the older tech sheets that say otherwise? I’ve noticed even with ETA they’ll call for 9010 on reversing gears when really you should use Lubeta so I guess this isnt exclusive to Rolex. Thank you for answering my question but I would like to know what Rolex does with the older movements now. It would be nice to get a hold of those updated tech sheets if for nothing else to see what oils he has substituted and any other changes they may have in servicing these old pieces.

[Xilikon]

Another possibility is to treat reversing wheels with ETA Luberta V105 after cleaning, it's a special kind of lubricant made for this exact purpose. Don't mix with the V106 which is made for bearing balls (like those on oscillators).

[Graziano]

13 hours ago, Wallace said:

. It would be nice to get a hold of those updated tech sheets if for nothing else to see what oils he has substituted and any other changes they may have in servicing these old pieces.

Hi there, you have probably seen this "Rolex Lubrication" http://www.horologist.com/rolex_lubrication.htm. This is lubrication charts. It won't tell you anything about epilame, just how to lubricate. Epilame will stop oil travelling over time. Yes rolex are special and care must be taken when cleaning and lubricating. But really that goes with all watches I guess especially if they belong to someone else. 

Cheers 

[Wallace]

9 hours ago, Graziano said:

Hi there, you have probably seen this "Rolex Lubrication" http://www.horologist.com/rolex_lubrication.htm. This is lubrication charts. It won't tell you anything about epilame, just how to lubricate. Epilame will stop oil travelling over time. Yes rolex are special and care must be taken when cleaning and lubricating. But really that goes with all watches I guess especially if they belong to someone else. 

Cheers 

Doesn’t want to pull that link I think I already read it though but thank you. I have updated oil on the 2030s but like I said they weren’t calling to treat the reverser on that movement so I followed the chart and did not treat the reversers. Fortunately one was for my sister and the other for a acquaintance and I’ve already treated  the reversers on that one and will be doing the other one shortly. I do treat according to the service chart but update with newer oils and newer methods and that was my question that the service chart did not call for it and why. I’m also curious on a 3000 series they call for oiling the actual gears on the reverser with 9010, so why? I even saw Mark do it when he did a video on a Rolex GMT he serviced. I know I added some questions in here but that was why I was kind of wondering if the old Rolex reversers call for oil why aren’t they oiled anymore? I am taking it as the opinion for all Rolex reversers old and new is epilame, no oil. I appreciate the advice I guess I’m just interested in the reason for the changes and why they were made.
 

[JohnR725]

On 5/5/2021 at 12:21 PM, Wallace said:

older movements 

older movements typically means older tech sheets they don't always get revised to becoming new tech sheets

11 hours ago, Graziano said:

It won't tell you anything about epilame,

I'm more familiar with the Omega documentation and eta'/s would just a little on Rolex. So let's give an example Omega have you ever seen the mention of anything related to surface treatment in any other documents up until relatively modern times? The answer is probably no there be a lubrication guide but nothing about surface treatment so obviously they don't use it. What about eta and their service guides do they ever mention surface treatment up until now of course not so obviously surface treatment is something relatively  modern?

The problem is surface treatment is been around since the 20s so why didn't watch companies embrace it? Because reality is the watch companies did embrace cents but there's a problem. Let's pick on Omega in the 50s printed a really nice guide on cleaning your watch lubrication and surface treatment is surface treated just about everything it's action the fifth jar in the cleaning machine process. But it's never mentioned in the normal tech guides because you're supposed to have this other technical documentation that you don't have.

Currently Omega calls them working instructions and in the newer tech stuff they will doubt reference these other guides I noticed even Rolex references the surface treatment and lubrication is another guide that were never going to see. for ETA if you have one of their manufacturing information sheets they will tell you what the surface treat. Like the balance pivots which you normally don't see mentioned anywhere else. So you have to have the supplemental information to find out about what you're supposed to be doing because the technical guide doesn't tell you that.

It's only a relatively modern times where they start to tell you that you're supposed to surface treating I think they caught on that people wouldn't read five guides on servicing a watch they just want one guides that put it in one guide. If they referred to something else that will actually tell you look at the something's.

Then you have to be careful on reverser wheels because the different types do have different lubrication methods.

So basically you're stuck with older watches with older guides would they benefit from doing it the modern way?

 

 

 

[Wallace]

John 

thank you that explains a lot and you’re absolutely right I’m not seeing those other tech sheets. I was wondering exactly that, since surface treatments been around so long why was it never referenced up until recently but your answer explains that. For the ETA I’ve always just used Lubeta but on the old sheets it doesn’t say to do that and actually calls for 9010. I assume there was a reason and maybe something I was missing and I’ve probably been interpreting these sheets way to literally in some cases. I will have to delve a little deeper into this because I really want to do it the best possible way every time and I keep feeling like I am missing pertinent information so I really appreciate everyone’s time and helping me. 

[JohnR725]

if you click on the link below you'll find an interesting search on the cousins document website. Number 40 may be of interest perhaps all the rest of them but number 40 for this conversation.

there is those minor irritation with the PDF which is you cannot do a search like for instance you want to search for the following word epilame it's in their but a search doesn't seem to find it?

Then I snipped out a sample of eta  manufacturing information sheet. Rather than choosing one of the newest ones I found one from 2007 and you'll notice the reference to epilame. I highlighted where they're using at the places you normally think of it but it's also on the balance staff.

I've also snipped out something from the incabloc website and it's found at the link below notice what they do with the balance jewels? There's that word again?

https://www.cousinsuk.com/document/search?SearchString=working

http://www.incabloc.ch/en/huilage.php

[MCBwatchrepair]

On 5/5/2021 at 2:54 PM, Xilikon said:

Another possibility is to treat reversing wheels with ETA Luberta V105 after cleaning, it's a special kind of lubricant made for this exact purpose. Don't mix with the V106 which is made for bearing balls (like those on oscillators).

Sorry to rehash an old post but has anyone tried Luberta V105 on reversing wheels?