Misterious Seiko Movement

[Kepas]

Hello out there,

I received this scrap Seiko movement as a gift from a friend. As the flying wheel looked ok, I thought to check the parts hoping that still could function after cleaning and oiling. However, one of the wheels has the pinion broken (arrow). The problem is that after disassembling the movement I could not find any inscription that indicates what Seiko movement this is to order the faulty part and the stem that is missing. The case indicates a 6119-7180, but the images of this movement in the web are not even similar and I haven´t seen a Seiko image of a 6119-7180 with a button at 2 o´clock. The oscillating weight has a Seiko engraving, but looks as it was stamped, therefore I think this looks may be a franken watch.

Any help to identify the watch movement to replace the broken part will be greatly appreciated

Thanks

 

Pedro

[jdm]

1 hour ago, Kepas said:

I could not find any inscription that indicates what Seiko movement

Because it's not a Seiko. No magic lever, then look at  at the pallet fork which is for a right angle escapement. The general layout seems a bit like ETA, but right now I can't tell what it is.

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, jdm said:

No magic lever,

there are some Seiko watches older ones that don't have a magic lever. But this definitely is not one of them.

 

it be nice if you could get a picture of the other side of the balance bridge.

 

[Marc]

as @JohnR725 says the lack of Magic Lever does not preclude Seiko, I have 5106 and 5606 autos that that use a completely different (non Magic Lever) winding system. The 5606 also has the non-linear escapement layout where the balance, pallet, and escape wheel pivots are not in the same line thus necessitating the off-set geometry of the pallet fork as seen in the OP's pics. That being said it is not a 5606 if it is even a Seiko at all, the rotor doesn't look like anything I've ever seen on a Seiko.

One thing is for sure, the case back and the movement are not from the same watch. The case back says that the movement inside is a 6119 which is a classic Magic Lever auto. It's also possible that the case back isn't original to the rest of the case. I could be wrong on this but I'm not aware of any of the 6119 series (A, B, or C) having a complication that would use a pusher at 2 o'clock. Although I'm happy to stand corrected on this if anyone knows better.

I would suggest that your suspicions of Frankenwatch are very well founded. Not much help with the movement ID though, sorry.

[jdm]

2 hours ago, Marc said:

as @JohnR725 says the lack of Magic Lever does not preclude Seiko

Of course it doesn't, and I never implied that. Being exact one can't affirm that if there is the magic lever then it's Seiko (as Orient which is owned by Seiko, and unlicensed Chinese use that as well), or that if there is not, then it's a not Seiko. In the latter case it can be interesting to understand why some Seiko don't have it.
First example, the 5606 as mentioned. That was an high segment mov.t for Seiko at the time, the objective was to make it as thin as possible while retaining a full calendar with quick-set, hacking seconds and manual wind. To do that, they moved all the auto winding components  from a top bridge into the main plate, evidently the magic lever was not fitting well into this schema. The result was accomplished pretty well with just and height of 4.45mm.
Another example, the 4L25 mov.t still used by mid-segment today. The reason is that this is not a Seiko design at all, be it by Soprod or somebody else, it has surely been designed in Switzerland.
Also in the list the current Grand Seiko mov'ts, whhc IMHO as they are made for a totally different segment where any hint of cheapness or commonality (as the magic lever is) would send the wrong message to the affluent and demanding buyer.
 

Quote

The 5606 also has the non-linear escapement layout where the balance, pallet, and escape wheel pivots are not in the same line thus necessitating the off-set geometry of the pallet fork as seen in the OP's pics.

Correct. Although in the 5606 the angle between the ideal lines of escapement-pallet and pallet-balance appears to be not as large as the extreme one in the OP's watch, which makes it more resemblant of an English lever pallet.
On the lines of investigating why that was done, the answer is to allow use of a larger diameter balance wheel which improves accuracy under all conditions.
Picture courtesy:  https://adventuresinamateurwatchfettling.com/2017/07/15/flawed-genius-a-seiko-lord-matic-5606-8010/

Quote

I would suggest that your suspicions of Frankenwatch are very well founded.

Absolutely, this is one more genuine "Mumbay special" made to deceive. Look at the terrible Seiko stamping on the rotor, and lettering on the dial. Which don't detract from the mov.t being a very interesting one.

[Kepas]

Hi there,

Thanks you very much for your suggestions and discussion trying to identify this movement. After JDM first reply, I also thought this could be a Seiko from India. How it got here… I wonder.

I also checked for Seikos on the web with a split Day and Date, and no one has this face. I took some close up pics and it seems the Seiko name and the 5 logo have being glued, which amaze me, since I assumed the dial was legit.

I also took some pics of the balance as JohnR725 suggested, in case anyone could help to identify the movement. I´m quite new to watch repair and as Mark suggested in some of his videos, I trying to get into as many scrap movements I can, a good learning experience. Especially with this one with a right angle pallet, as your discussions imply.

So, case closed, fake Seiko… if anyone can help identifying the movement, still I´ll appreciate that.

[jdm]

1 hour ago, Kepas said:

I also thought this could be a Seiko from India. How it got here… I wonder.

People buying a Seiko mechanical watch for the first time often look on Ebay. Invariably the cheapest ones are from India, they have a small industry there to make them with anything available or they may have been made decades ago and passed around. 

 

1 hour ago, Kepas said:

 it seems the Seiko name and the 5 logo have being glued, which amaze me, since I assumed the dial was legit.

A genuine Seiko dial, beside being impeccably made, carries small numbers at 6. Connoisseurs are able to relate these to the case reference for correctness.

 

1 hour ago, Kepas said:

 if anyone can help identifying the movement, still I´ll appreciate that.

I'm curious too. 

[JohnR725]

21 hours ago, jdm said:

The general layout seems a bit like ETA,

 

3 hours ago, Kepas said:

I also took some pics of the balance

what I was looking for was this this would've been very helpful right at the very beginning. definitely something you would find on a ETA movement don't think ever find it on a Seiko.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incabloc_shock_protection_system

 

[Kepas]

Hi, I would like to thank all of you for the helpful suggestions how to deal with this fraken watch. I´m novice to this art, so all your posts are a great guidance to learn from this peculiar movement.

6 hours ago, jdm said:

People buying a Seiko mechanical watch for the first time often look on Ebay. Invariably the cheapest ones are from India, they have a small industry there to make them with anything available or they may have been made decades ago and passed around. 

I asked my friend about how he got this watch and told me that he bought it to get some spare parts, but he mention that are several watches from India around.

 

6 hours ago, jdm said:

A genuine Seiko dial, beside being impeccably made, carries small numbers at 6. Connoisseurs are able to relate these to the case reference for correctness.

I was wonder about it, thank you to mention this, I though that may be some old watch do not carry the number at 6.

 

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

what I was looking for was this this would've been very helpful right at the very beginning. definitely something you would find on a ETA movement don't think ever find it on a Seiko.

Thank you JohnR725 for this advice. Now I know how to post the pic next time, in the meantime I´ll check around some ETA movement. Considering this probably is coming from India, I checked the automatic movement from India, but they are Citizen derived, therefore the shock protection is of a different type.

Thanks again, and if I find the movement I´ll let you know.