Is it possible to "floss" a jewel hole instead of pegging it?

[GregG]

I was tinkering the other day and wondered if it'd be possible to use a piece of fine wire to "floss" through a jewel hole/pivot as an alternative to using peg wood.

I had some stranded wire that i stripped the insulation off and cut out one of the very fine wires inside.  I ran the wire through the pivot hole and was able to shimmy it in and out, presumably cleaning it if there was any dried up oil inside.  I don't know if there was, but i just did it to see if i could.

Are there any potential downsides to this method?  Is it potentially damaging or just a waste of effort?

[nickelsilver]

The wire won't likely damage the jewel, but it would never have the "sponge" effect of a piece of pegwood that was cut to enter the jewel and then shapes itself to the jewel. Plus, the jewels where pegging is most important, the fork jewels, are often so small I doubt you'd find wire fine enough and if so it'd be a nightmare to use.

I've been doing this for decades, and with a pro cleaning machine and solutions, no I don't peg every jewel. But I hunted down a missing 40 degrees of amplitude on a JLC 838 once for a full day, and ended up pegging the fork jewels and BAM there they were. I usually pegged them before, always ever since.

[GregG]

25 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

The wire won't likely damage the jewel, but it would never have the "sponge" effect of a piece of pegwood that was cut to enter the jewel and then shapes itself to the jewel. Plus, the jewels where pegging is most important, the fork jewels, are often so small I doubt you'd find wire fine enough and if so it'd be a nightmare to use.

I've been doing this for decades, and with a pro cleaning machine and solutions, no I don't peg every jewel. But I hunted down a missing 40 degrees of amplitude on a JLC 838 once for a full day, and ended up pegging the fork jewels and BAM there they were. I usually pegged them before, always ever since.

Hi nickelsilver, thanks for replying.  I supposed the purpose of the wire wouldn't necessarily be to soak up old oil but to agitate it and loosen it up to make cleaning more effective.  I checked a few websites and it seems like hole jewels bottom out at 0.07 mm wide.  AWG 42 wire is readily available and is < 0.07 mm wide, so it should theoretically fit into any jewel hole.

[Nucejoe]

How do you figure wire is any more effective than the pivot itself?  

 Old oil can safely be loosened if you do your trick after a good soak of the movement in solvent with gears and arbours in situ, move the pivot as when checking side shake.

I am terrible at pegging, have been trying to use tiny tooth brush bristles.

A jewel might move if you try to force pegwod shape itself to the hole as Nickelsilver says, I guess I have got a long way to go to master pegging.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Klassiker]

5 hours ago, GregG said:

to agitate it and loosen it up to make cleaning more effective.

I floss really dirty jewels with hair (mine or the dog's), and it works really well as long as the edges of the jewel are not sharp. I do the threading under the microscope. Hold both ends firmly and spin the part.

At the risk of contradicting @nickelsilver, who is the Gospel as far as I'm concerned, I have not had much joy with pegwood on fine holes. Either I cannot get a fine enough tip on it to enter the hole, or bits flake off and get stuck in there.

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, Klassiker said:

I floss really dirty jewels with hair (mine or the dog's).

Thats brilliant  K,  off to getting me a dog. 

[Klassiker]

4 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

off to getting me a dog

Swiss or Chinese?

[mikepilk]

12 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

The wire won't likely damage the jewel, but it would never have the "sponge" effect of a piece of pegwood that was cut to enter the jewel and then shapes itself to the jewel. Plus, the jewels where pegging is most important, the fork jewels, are often so small I doubt you'd find wire fine enough and if so it'd be a nightmare to use.

I've been doing this for decades, and with a pro cleaning machine and solutions, no I don't peg every jewel. But I hunted down a missing 40 degrees of amplitude on a JLC 838 once for a full day, and ended up pegging the fork jewels and BAM there they were. I usually pegged them before, always ever since.

Since you mentioned it in a previous post, I always peg the fork jewels, and others if they need it. 

I used Bergeon beech pegwood, but struggle to get a fine enough point for the fork jewels, and bits break off and stick in the hole. An old sharpened oiler and Rodico are then needed.

Do you have any tips for sharpening the pegwood? I use a razor blade under the microscope, but it takes a while to keep sharpening it. I tried a pencil sharpening but without good results.

[nickelsilver]

47 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Do you have any tips for sharpening the pegwood? I use a razor blade under the microscope, but it takes a while to keep sharpening it. I tried a pencil sharpening but without good results.

I use the NT Japanese cutter knives, easier to manipulate than a razor blade; the standard blades are good but if you hunt you can find the black colored blades which are even sharper.

 

Some pegwood is better than others, it's usually referred to as orangewood, so not sure if Bergeon substituted another there with the beechwood. I have always bought it when I found it secondhand so I have quite a stockpile, but bought some new from Horotec recently and it is very good- I see that they say it's from lime trees.

 

But even from the same bundle you can run into sticks that just don't want to take a fine point. When getting into fork jewel holes that are often 0.09mm or smaller it does break sometimes, and it's always a pain, but it's just like that.

[spectre6000]

Flossing the jewel holes is pretty much how they are, or at least used to be made. The blanks start with a small hole, and a series of progressively larger wires smeared with fine diamond paste is threaded through a whole bunch of them at once. From there, they're spun or something to open and polish the holes. I have a video of the process from some old Hamilton films on my media server hard drive.

[LittleWatchShop]

12 hours ago, Klassiker said:

Either I cannot get a fine enough tip on it to enter the hole, or bits flake off and get stuck in there.

Pegwood is a topic I have been meaning to post about.  I have old pegwood that I inherited and recently I bought brand new "branded" pegwood from either esslinger or julesborel.  I thought I was gonna really up my game.

I was disappointed.  The old stuff is better than the new stuff.  Much higher density...easier to make sharp points that do not flake away...

This is a very interesting thread...I am still learning!!

[HectorLooi]

I got a batch from Esslinger a couple of years ago. I just can't get it to a fine point. It tends to break off when it gets almost fine enough.

And when I use it in a water based cleaner, the sharpened point swells up, goes soft and frays, then leave bits everywhere. 

I now use a small artist brush to stab at the jewel hole and hope that some of the bristles go through. Sometimes the dried up lubricant is so stubborn that I have to use a root canal instrument to get it off.

Glad to know that I'm not the only one with pegwood problems.

[GregG]

On 8/25/2021 at 11:02 AM, spectre6000 said:

Flossing the jewel holes is pretty much how they are, or at least used to be made. The blanks start with a small hole, and a series of progressively larger wires smeared with fine diamond paste is threaded through a whole bunch of them at once. From there, they're spun or something to open and polish the holes. I have a video of the process from some old Hamilton films on my media server hard drive.

That sounds pretty cool. If you can find them I'd be interested in seeing them.

[Nucejoe]

On 8/25/2021 at 3:19 PM, Klassiker said:

Swiss or Chinese?

Lots of stray dogs here. 

I am serious  K , your idea is brilliant, I expect good result if the hair is smathered with diamond paste.

Plus the joy of not having to find an item in cousines catalogue.

Regs

[Klassiker]

6 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

I expect good result if the hair is smathered with diamond paste.

Not a good idea If you are only cleaning the hole.