Mainspring lubrication, manual and automatic

[nickelsilver]

I had an older JLC auto in that wanted to slip too much with Kluber, and with the magic GR grease. I finally roughed up the barrel wall with 20 micron paper and that seemed to fix it; the question is still "for how long?". It was a sealed barrel, none available.

[Knebo]

8 hours ago, Birbdad said:

Can ANYBODY who uses 8217 weigh in?

Well, I do. 

I can't can myself an expert or a safe reference, though. But never had problems with power reserve (and amplitude). 

I put a little blob next to each notch in the barrel wall and then spread it out. For most barrels I've worked with, that would sum up to 5-6 blobs. 

The pictures below with show the quantity I use. 

 

By the way, do you have notches in your barrel wall? If not, maybe they've worn away and that could be the issue. But there are also notchless barrels (by design). Don't know about yours. 

[Birbdad]

11 hours ago, Knebo said:

Well, I do. 

I can't can myself an expert or a safe reference, though. But never had problems with power reserve (and amplitude). 

I put a little blob next to each notch in the barrel wall and then spread it out. For most barrels I've worked with, that would sum up to 5-6 blobs. 

The pictures below with show the quantity I use. 

 

By the way, do you have notches in your barrel wall? If not, maybe they've worn away and that could be the issue. But there are also notchless barrels (by design). Don't know about yours. 

Seiko barrels do not appear to have notches that i've seen. I would imagine those notches on their own would catch the bridle or at least increase friction to some degree which on it's own might also increase braking capability. That's more than i used this time and probably about how much i used the first time. 

 

[Knebo]

@Birbdad, I was just reading all your posts about this topic again. Question: have you tested the power reserve yet (after winding manually to full wind)? How does it compare to spec?

If you get to full/above power reserve, I'd be less concerned about premature slippage of the spring. 

If power reserve is fine, then you could review the strength of the spring. The one you got from GR is 0.11mm thick. 

Watchguy.co.uk uses one that is 0.12mm thick (GR2378X): https://watchguy.co.uk/service-seiko-7s26-0200-scuba-divers-watch/#:~:text=I will fit a new,12 x 400 x 10.5.
And Gleave lists one with 0.115mm thickness: https://gleave.london/mainspring-0-95-x-0-115-x-380-x-10-0-automatic-seiko-7009-swiss-made-generic/

Important disclaimer: I am NOT advocating to blindly use a thicker spring to get more amplitude. Only if everything else is fine and if the power reserve is at/above spec. And if anyone can confirm the thickness of the original spring, then  that's the one to go by.

[Birbdad]

1 hour ago, Knebo said:

@Birbdad, I was just reading all your posts about this topic again. Question: have you tested the power reserve yet (after winding manually to full wind)? How does it compare to spec?

If you get to full/above power reserve, I'd be less concerned about premature slippage of the spring. 

If power reserve is fine, then you could review the strength of the spring. The one you got from GR is 0.11mm thick. 

Watchguy.co.uk uses one that is 0.12mm thick (GR2378X): https://watchguy.co.uk/service-seiko-7s26-0200-scuba-divers-watch/#:~:text=I will fit a new,12 x 400 x 10.5.
And Gleave lists one with 0.115mm thickness: https://gleave.london/mainspring-0-95-x-0-115-x-380-x-10-0-automatic-seiko-7009-swiss-made-generic/

Important disclaimer: I am NOT advocating to blindly use a thicker spring to get more amplitude. Only if everything else is fine and if the power reserve is at/above spec. And if anyone can confirm the thickness of the original spring, then  that's the one to go by.

So that is interesting. He's using a thicker one but getting about the same amplitude I am with the thinner one, actually slightly lower.

As far as testing power reserve i havent' let it run on it's own all the way down. What i do know is it's about six full winds with the stock main spring to full wind (The one i use SHOULD be roughly an exact match for it, both from my measurements and from people here who use it and say they get correct amplitude.), and on the one i use i was getting only about 3 winds before slippage my first go at greasing the barrel and then four winds my second go when i used a bit less grease. 

When i wind it the tension of the wind also never really feels anything like it does with the stock spring, it's much lighter which makes me think it has to be slipping prematurely. But i could totally be wrong. 

All i know is at least with the stock spring, i always get 270 amplitude or higher when i work on this movement and this is my first attempt with a generic mainspring. I don't HAVE to push it to 270 but if i can get that 270 and the delta is good i know i did everything right, and i'm still learning so i want to do things right. 

The other point of contention, if this bridle is slipping too early and i'm only getting what appears to be about 65% to 70% of full wind, the amplitude i'm getting is pretty much what i expect. It's about 245 at full wind with the generic currently. 

I've just purchased a stronger braking grease from cousins, the 8213. It will be interesting to see how if at all that differs. 

I do know OTHERS here have used the same mainspring and movement combo and say this mainspring absolutely does give them correct amplitude and 270 should be expected. 

[Knebo]

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

As far as testing power reserve i havent' let it run on it's own all the way down.

Despite your explanation on the number of turns until slippage, I think it would be extremely helpful if you could just test the power reserve once.

 

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

I've just purchased a stronger braking grease from cousins, the 8213.

Having always used 8217 with no apparent problems, I don't think it is causing you issues per se. But I'd be very interested in a 1-to-1 comparison.

 

[Birbdad]

On 7/22/2024 at 7:29 AM, Knebo said:

Having always used 8217 with no apparent problems, I don't think it is causing you issues per se. But I'd be very interested in a 1-to-1 comparison.

 

Do you ever work on seikos? Iirc most swiss barrels have those cuts in them. 

And i tore apart the thing and am gonna re oil it for the 3rd time and i'll let it run. 

Edited July 24, 2024 by Birbdad

[Knebo]

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

Do you ever work on seikos?

Only one manual wind ladies watch so far. 

 

2 hours ago, Birbdad said:

and i'll let it run

Great!

[JohnR725]

there's an interesting discussion currently going on looks like you can throw your breaking grease away as you don't need it at all apparently?

 

[Nucejoe]

 I wonder if grease can be mixed in some type of fluid as a carrier  ( alcohol or pertroliunm stuff) for lubricating mainsprings, to just dunk in the mainspring , then let alcohol  evaporate and  leave  grease on the spring. 

 I don't  have a winder tool,  just hand wind the old springs inside a washer like new mainspeings come, rinse and install, so you can see why I am after this invention.

Laziness isn't the sole mother of inventions.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2024 by Nucejoe
correction

[HectorLooi]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

 I wonder if grease can be mixed in some type of fluid as a carrier  ( alcohol or pertroliunm stuff) for lubricating mainsprings, to just dunk in the mainspring , then let alcohol  evaporate and  leave  grease on the spring. 

 I don't  have a winder tool,  just hand wind the old springs inside a washer like new mainspeings come, rinse and install, so you can see why I am after this invention.

Laziness isn't the sole mother of inventions.

 

 

 

 

 

This is the definition of a grease from Wikipedia:-

Grease is solid or semisolid lubricant formed as a dispersion of thickening agents in a liquid lubricant. Grease generally consists of a soap emulsidued with mineral or vegetable oil.

So, it seems that grease is not a homogeneous substance but a suspension of oils and soap. So a carrier solvent might not leave behind the lubricants in the desired proportions. 

But having said that, there are spray on greases that come in an aerosol can. The grease when it first comes out is more liquid and immediately starts to bubble as the propellant and solvent starts to evaporate.

[Nucejoe]

Thank you Hector, appreciate your response.

 The spring coil when I hand wind it inside a washer, look just like new ones come wound inside rings or washers, so liquid grease must penetrate down between layers of spring before carrier evaporates.  

As you say, the liquid aerosol  immediately starts to bubble up, seems to me it wouldn't stay liquid long enough to penetrate between layers of mainspring, where its needed. 

You see, hand wound spring gets messy, needs a good rinse, so lubrication must be the final application on it.

Your thought?  

Rgds

 

 

[HectorLooi]

I use Moebius 8300. Put 4 dabs on the coil inside the barrel and almost immediately, the blobs will get pulled between the coils by capillary action.

I think you could put 8300 on the coils in the washer and it would get sucked in also.

Sometimes when I repack the grease in the bearings of my equipment, I put globs of grease between the raceways and flame it with a microtorch. The grease melts and flows into the bearings very nicely. You could try using your oven when the wife's not looking. 

 

[rjenkinsgb]

15 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

I don't  have a winder tool,  just hand wind the old springs inside a washer like new mainspeings come, rinse and install, so you can see why I am after this invention.

I've been handwinding quite a few recently, due to them being sizes that do not work with any of the winders I have.

(I wear nitrile rubber gloves with working on watches as I've not found finger cots that fit without cutting off my circulation..)

 

Put a small smear of grease on your gloved fingertips and wipe along the spring with it, then wind it in to the washer while the last trace of grease is still on the gloves. Winding it just distributes the grease more.

I've used that technique on some larger ones, or wound them dry then added two or three small dabs of 9104 on the side of the coil afterwards, as Hector advised.

[RichardHarris123]

29 minutes ago, rjenkinsgb said:

wear nitrile rubber gloves with working on watches as I've not found finger cots that fit without cutting off my circulation..)

I have very small hands for a man but chunky fingers are have the very same problem. 

[Birbdad]

Okay interesting development here ya'll working on seikos should see.  This is again a seiko 7s26 with a general resortes 2377x mainspring.
So my original issue was i could not get over 230 to 240 amp and i was SURE that the bridle was slipping prematurely using 2817. I was also unsure if the generic mainspring i'm using is correct.
I've cleaned and reserviced the barrel now THREE times and here were my results. 
1. Did the classic five little dots and flatten them out into little smears. This got me the lowest amplitude and hte most premature slipping. 
2. Tried reducing it to three little dots and flattening them. This got me about 10 extra degrees of amplitude but still very little tension on the spring. 
3. And now i just did this so i expect amplitude to climb as it settles into the service but somebody here said the seiko spec sheet tells you to make a ring of braking grease across the entire barrel wall. I did four little dabs, and smeared it across the whole barrel wall as best i could. Wound it up and TENSION, like...normal tension i would expect. 

I threw it on the timegrapher and got the same damn 230ish amp and just let it run for 20 minutes and sat there and watched the amplitude climb higher and higher. My oilings probably all messed up since i've assembled and disassembled so many times but look at this. 

The delta is shit of about 35 seconds but now that it appears my amp issues might be solved i can reclean and lubricate and then i'll check the hair spring and worry about the delta.

The ring technique WORKED. 

Edited July 30, 2024 by Birbdad

[Knebo]

On 6/9/2022 at 7:53 AM, Kalanag said:

Just for the record: I used the priceworthy „859-8 + PTFE“ (Dr.Tillwich) as a breaking grease for a 50 years old Citizen 6900 ladies automatic caliber. The result is good so far. Smooth winding and a power reserve of 38,5 hours (38h specified).

I always wonder how this huge bridle (brake) fits into the tiny barrel…

 

I'm about to service a JLC 889 / 929 and the service manual also specifies "859 + PTFE" as the breaking grease.

I'm wondering if it's worth buying to replace my current Moebius 8217 breaking grease. 

I wonder if @Kalanag, or anyone else, has made any further experiences with 859-8 + PTFE. Any comparisons with Kluber P125 or Moebius 8217 (or 8213)? If not in performance, even just in how it looks and its viscosity?  

Thanks for sharing, if so.

[VWatchie]

4 hours ago, Knebo said:

I'm wondering if it's worth buying to replace my current Moebius 8217 breaking grease. 

I'm afraid I have no experience with the "859 + PTFE" grease, but if JLC recommends it, I'd be inclined to get it just to make sure. If, on the other hand, we could tell for sure that 8217 would do the job just as well, then why not save the money?

Here's a quote from @nickelsilver that I've saved:

• "Moebius 8217 is the standard grease
• Kluber P125  is also a standard if a bit more high tech grease. Then there is
• 8212, also known as Glissalube B, for aluminum barrels, and
• 8213, Glissalube A, for brass barrels.

Easy to remember as the letter code matches the opposite metal."

Edited November 28, 2024 by VWatchie

[Knebo]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

If, on the other hand, we could tell for sure that 8217 would do the job just as well, then why not save the money?

I'm not sure where he said it, but @Jon always uses 8217 and without any issues. (please correct me if wrong). 

And same for me. Always used 8217. So far no problems. But I've always wondered if Kluber P125 was better... but it's so expensive. Now this 859+PTFE popped up and I'm wondering if it's like P125 at lower price. 

 

PS: when saying "better", I guess there are two factors:

1. Later slipping (i.e. higher amplitude) 

2. Protecting barrel walls from wear. 

For me, I don't care about losing 10 degrees of amplitude (@JohnR725 would be proud of me) if the barrel wall is protected better. 

Edited November 28, 2024 by Knebo

[Kalanag]

19 hours ago, Knebo said:

…I wonder if @Kalanag, or anyone else, has made any further experiences with 859-8 + PTFE. Any comparisons with Kluber P125 or Moebius 8217 (or 8213)? If not in performance, even just in how it looks and its viscosity?…

The 859+PTFE is white. It works as good as any other braking grease. Use the 8217 you have! Most hobbyists don‘t care about +/- 1 or 2 hours of power reserve. For the manufacturer it makes a notable differenz in advertised data and warranty costs.

Braking grease is not meant to brake. It is meant to protect a highly loaded braking mechanism from long term wear.

What I forgot to mention: The tar-like consistency of P125 seems to be unique.

Edited November 29, 2024 by Kalanag

[Neverenoughwatches]

15 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Easy to remember as the letter code matches the opposite metal."

Great way to remember ...since everything I do has the opposite effect of what I want to achieve 

14 hours ago, Knebo said:

I'm not sure where he said it, but @Jon always uses 8217 and without any issues. (please correct me if wrong). 

And same for me. Always used 8217. So far no problems. But I've always wondered if Kluber P125 was better... but it's so expensive. Now this 859+PTFE popped up and I'm wondering if it's like P125 at lower price. 

 

PS: when saying "better", I guess there are two factors:

1. Later slipping (i.e. higher amplitude) 

2. Protecting barrel walls from wear. 

For me, I don't care about losing 10 degrees of amplitude (@JohnR725 would be proud of me) if the barrel wall is protected better. 

John might be proud of you.... but now you've just upset and fallen out with all the "AMPLITUDE FANATICS"

[Jon]

I put quite a bit of 8217 around the barrel wall of a 7S26C, but not paint it on and use a 0.95 x 0.115 x 380 x 10 mainspring and get this.

The thing with Seiko's is there so many variables that have nothing to do with the mainspring, just because of the movement and the amount of wear in these movements. One of the biggest wear being the barrel arbor hole in the bridge or mainplate.

I would look at braking grease lubrication technique, rather than looking to change your grease, but that's just me, as I've found what works for me. As they say, 'the proof is in the pudding'

 

[VWatchie]

13 hours ago, Jon said:

I put quite a bit of 8217 around the barrel wall of a 7S26C, but not paint it on and use a 0.95 x 0.115 x 380 x 10 mainspring and get this.

I more or less gave up on Seiko/Orient watches some years ago having tried to replace the mainspring with generic Générale Ressorts springs. As I remember, I got a decent amplitude but a more than halved power reserve. I tried all sorts of braking greases but I had no success. I can't remember the specs of the springs I used or why. Anyway, was the spring you used a Générale Ressorts spring or some Japanese spring?

[Jon]

On 11/30/2024 at 10:00 AM, VWatchie said:

Anyway, was the spring you used a Générale Ressorts spring or some Japanese spring?

It was an original 'Nivaflex' spring from Gleave and Co. which I don't think they sell that anymore and instead the GR spring.

I fit a lot of mainsprings. One thing I came to realise from experience and seeing the results of those mainsprings is, you can get information about the size of the mainspring from several good sources and they may all give the dimensions as slightly different. One source I generally look at first is the GR catalogue, but I can find that a spring is either too strong or clearly too weak for that movement, even though the catalogue says it is correct. I may have to go up or down one strength. 

Now, I would start to think it was the wear of the movement, etc. for me to up the strength of the spring, but most of the time it is having to come down in strength to stop the knocking (re-banking).

I've found this to be the case with some vintage JLC's, Tudor and a Rolex 1200, so maybe it's the makers of the mainsprings that make them slightly stronger or weaker, even though the pack says the correct size. 

Edited December 1, 2024 by Jon