Mainspring lubrication, manual and automatic

[TheFixer]

Hi, Gents.

Can I get away with using Moebius 8300 on the barrel walls of a Seiko 6309 automatic?

I have a new spring on the way from Cousins so any advice on fitting it would be welcome.

Many thanks.

 

Jon

[centerwheel]

On an automatic, I think, you need a breaking oil on the barrel walls. Perhaps 8217 would be a good choice.

[oldhippy]

You need Moebius 8217 is an anti sliding grease for the walls of barrels of auto movements.

[TheFixer]

Thanks, gentlemen I have ordered some from France.

[vinn3]

2 hours ago, oldhippy said:

You need Moebius 8217 is an anti sliding grease for the walls of barrels of auto movements.

  doesen't all grease slide or slip?    vin

[oldhippy]

That is from the Moebius web site. 

[vinn3]

1 minute ago, oldhippy said:

That is from the Moebius web site. 

   thanks

[nickelsilver]

43 minutes ago, vinn3 said:

  doesen't all grease slide or slip?    vin

Grease for auto barrels need to slip just enough. Moebius 8217 is the standard grease, Kluber P125 is also a standard if a bit more high tech grease. Then there is 8212, also known as Glissalube B, for aluminum barrels, and 8213, Glissalube A, for brass barrels. Easy to remember as the letter code matches the opposite metal. Some barrels/ calibers are very sensitive to the braking grease used, and may lose a significant amount of wind because of too slippery a braking grease, inversely, may overstress winding components if the grease is too aggressive at braking. Best to follow the manufacturer's advice, and when lacking that, go on experience. But 8217 is a good one to try.

[VWatchie]

So, @nickelsilver, I'm a bit confused. Do I get you right if I assume that all the mentioned greases, except the Glissalube A (8213), are for aluminium auto-barrels, and consequently that the Glissalube A (8213) is for brass auto-barrels? We would never need any of these greases for mechanical barrels, right? Thanks!

[nickelsilver]

So, [mention=4990]nickelsilver[/mention], I'm a bit confused. Do I get you right if I assume that all the mentioned greases, except the Glissalube A (8213), are for aluminium auto-barrels, and consequently that the Glissalube A (8213) is for brass auto-barrels? We would never need any of these greases for mechanical barrels, right? Thanks!

Hmmm, well they are all for automatic barrels. Glissalube A for brass (not plated), B for aluminum (not seen that often anymore). 8217 and Kluber P125 are for anywhere (but doesn't necessarily mean they are ideal).

Manual wind watches have no need for these greases.

[VWatchie]

On 7/27/2015 at 10:22 PM, rogart63 said:

Good question I have this saved on my computer and i printed it out on the printer . Have you guys and girls seen it before ? .http://www.bhi.co.uk/Documents/certificate/Tech/PractLub.pdf

Link no longers works, but it can be found here: http://watchmaker.hu/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/olajzási útmutató.pdf

[centerwheel]

I've watched carefully all of Mark's videos of him servicing automatic watches. They all show how he puts breaking grease on the wall of the mainspring barrel, and that he oils the arbor in the places where it would touch the barrel top or bottom. However, it seems that the mainspring itself is mounted "dry", and no oil is applied to it prior to the closing of the barrel. Does anyone know the reason he skips oiling the mainspring? I would like to it the way he does it but I would also like to know why he chose to do it with no oiling of the spring.

In other places, such as TimeZone, they recommend oiling technique to be used just prior to closing the barrel. One must be then careful so the oil does not get on the wall and affect power reserve.

[m1ks]

8 minutes ago, centerwheel said:

I've watched carefully all of Mark's videos of him servicing automatic watches. They all show how he puts breaking grease on the wall of the mainspring barrel, and that he oils the arbor in the places where it would touch the barrel top or bottom. However, it seems that the mainspring itself is mounted "dry", and no oil is applied to it prior to the closing of the barrel. Does anyone know the reason he skips oiling the mainspring? I would like to it the way he does it but I would also like to know why he chose to do it with no oiling of the spring.

In other places, such as TimeZone, they recommend oiling technique to be used just prior to closing the barrel. One must be then careful so the oil does not get on the wall and affect power reserve.

This tends to be a personal preference thing.

With modern white metal UB mainsprings, theoretically they don't need lubrication. Most people however do, Mark himself does but just doesn't show it on every video. There is one or two where he demonstrates how he does it.

Personally I use a small piece of tissue paper to apply a thin smear of light grease rather than oil. Others fit the spring and apply 2 or 3 drops of oil which then spread through capillary action.

[centerwheel]

Thanks! I've seen Mark showing how he oils a mainspring of a hand winded watch, but I have not seen any showing him doing it on an automatic. He then shows all of the oiling spots, goes through them one by one, but never shows or mentions what he does to the mainspring. If I am wrong about it then I will stand corrected.

Pre-oiling the mainspring, just like you do with the (lint-free) tissue paper, will cause, when the spring is wound with a mainspring winder, for the oil to spread up all the way to the place that should get no oil at all. There will be no way to prevent it.

[jdm]

5 hours ago, centerwheel said:

However, it seems that the mainspring itself is mounted "dry", and no oil is applied to it prior to the closing of the barrel.

Correct. The mainspring has no friction and needs no oil. Apply braking grease to the barrel wall and that's it.

[m1ks]

7 hours ago, centerwheel said:

 

Pre-oiling the mainspring, just like you do with the (lint-free) tissue paper, will cause, when the spring is wound with a mainspring winder, for the oil to spread up all the way to the place that should get no oil at all. There will be no way to prevent it.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this above?

However, the purpose is not to 'oil' the mainspring but to give it a light coating to prevent corrosion.

Watchmakers have been doing this for years and many who have written numerous books also state that they too oil UB springs as well as the older blued steel ones with no evidence to the contrary that there's a negative effect.

[VWatchie]

I’ve been doing this for some years now but like @centerwheel I’m still puzzled by how to lubricate when reusing an automatic mainspring. When I have a new spring delivered in a spacer there’s no problem. I simply lubricate the barrel wall (Moebius 8217/Kluber P125, etc.) and push the spring in as it comes pre-lubricated.

However, I don’t know the technique for reusing an automatic mainspring as lubricating the spring, say with Moebius 8200, would "contaminate" the outer coil resting against the barrel wall and likely defeat or interfere with the braking effect of the braking oil (I suppose?).

Furthermore, and in my personal experience, trying to wind a perfectly clean and dry spring into the barrel of my mainspring winder (K&D 128) without first lubricating it will make the spring break (read explode!). So, for this reason I never reuse automatic mainsprings, and it really seems like a waste.

EDIT:

Come to think of it, it could be that the "exploding" mainspring was somehow damaged, but to the best of my recollection is was not. Or, it could be that the inner wall of my particular mainspring winder barrel causes too much friction. Well, I'm still puzzled...

Edited December 7, 2019 by VWatchie
explode

[oldhippy]

Reading the responses, I would say everyone is right in their own way. I was taught to always use breaking grease on the inside of the barrel walls, oil around the arbor and a little oil on the mainspring. Because inside the barrel the mainspring moves, so contact is made on the spring and to prevent rubbing of the spring the oil will prevent this from happening. Except with Seiko mainsprings, in my time back in the 70’s & 80’s you would replace the whole unit. That is what Seiko recommended; I think every 5 years it was recommended. Not always the case even then not all were available. For those auto springs it was suggest to use a graphite type grease, this would be put inside the barrel wall, between the arbor and spring and over the spring, so when the spring coils moved the compound would work itself between the coils  of the spring to prevent rubbing.

A dry spring can cause what is known as barrel bound. That is when the spring cannot unwind, a little lube can prevent this from happening. I’m not saying it always causes this situation, there are many others as well.    

[centerwheel]

Oiling  the mainspring (after it was installed dry) makes sense. Still, Mark does not do it and I would like to know why.

[jdm]

3 minutes ago, centerwheel said:

Oiling  the mainspring (after it was installed dry) makes sense. Still, Mark does not do it and I would like to know why.

Because isn't needed. I'll make no further effort to explain why, after all this is a lubrication topic, so disagreement is expected.

[vinn3]

33 minutes ago, centerwheel said:

Oiling  the mainspring (after it was installed dry) makes sense. Still, Mark does not do it and I would like to know why.

    if my information is true;  the only reason it is alloud to slip is "if it was anchored in the barrel "as normal" main spring"  the winder could break it.     some put a standard spring in,   some watches will wind with the rotor removed.   "to each his own".   vin

[VWatchie]

In my limited experience, winding a dry mainspring into the barrel of a mainspring winder is not a good idea. In my case the spring broke and exploded out of the barrel (K&D 128). So, I wonder what your experience is of winding dry automatic mainsprings into the barrel of a mainspring winder? If it was(/is?) safe to do so it would really solve the problem!

[Ajohnw]

I've seen a number of suggestions that 8201 or 8301 should be used, 8301 because that person thought 8201 was too runny. It seems odd to me that synthetics are used every where else but graphite will lubricate for ever if it stays there and in a sense the "oil" breaking down under pressure doesn't matter,

Also comments that many modern springs come precoated - ptfe, teflon or something of that order.

I'm not clear what breaking grease is meant to achieve. Maybe some one can explain. Auto's and mechanical.

A few drops of oil are also mentioned after the spring has been installed. That could be lightly wiped on a excess wiped off as per when a grease is used. This could be a synthetic but which one?

A Seiko technical reference I have mentions Seiko 2 on the lid and edge of the barrel and Seiko 3 on the arbour. Nothing on the spring. This is for a 6309A. So called normal amount of oil in both cases. Seiko 2 is for things that slip. S 3 has graphite in it and is also used in the mainspring  area on some Seiko movements.

It's all very confusing to a beginner. As an engineer I'm inclined to think with graphite and light so 8201 but also as an engineer wonder why there doesn't appear to be a suitable synthetic but maybe one of the HP's is as they have additives - moly or graphite I suppose.

John

-

[m1ks]

Breaking grease is simply to allow slippage of an auto spring without wearing on the sides of the barrel wall but retaining enough grip that it doesn't slip prematurely.

[jdm]

Excuse the nitpick, it's braking grease, as in anti-sliding. Using the correct name helps understanding its function. Beside, breaking things spells a bad omen in watchmaking 

BTW, not all automatic barrels really need that. It depends by the shape of the bridle, materials used, and torque involved.