KIF Trior or Novodiac shock springs: meant to be installed once only

[ifibrin]

After working on a few movements with KIF trior or Novodiac shock springs, I realised that repeated removal and reinstallation of these shock springs tends to deform them slightly, warping them in the direction of the curve of the cap jewel. This means that the shock spring doesn’t press down on to the cap jewel as much, allowing the cap jewel and hole jewel to wobble slightly, and the loose fitting shock spring to rotate itself out of the shock setting.

Does this mean that KIF trior or Novodiac shock springs should ideally be replaced at each servicing? As a short term fix, flipping the shock spring around so that the part bent outwards is facing the cap jewel allows the shock spring to be reinstalled tightly, but I am not sure if this is recommended…

I am using the recommended tools to uninstall and reinstall the shock springs.

[watchweasol]

Due to the delicate construction of these shock springs I would guess in the professional world they are replaced, but as you have discovered that fitting them in reverse allows for a tight fit. In the amateur world I guess thats acceptable as  the amateur repairer does not have the resources of the professional.  Repeated fitting and removal will eventually destroy the spring.

[jdm]

2 hours ago, ifibrin said:

Does this mean that KIF trior or Novodiac shock springs should ideally be replaced at each servicing?

No, I don't think so. Otherwise that would be mentioned in the service guides, or books.

 

2 hours ago, ifibrin said:

I am using the recommended tools to uninstall and reinstall the shock springs.

These may not be the best choice, as metal can be too harsh especially in the hands of beginners. Shaped pegwood may be better, as I'm showing in this video:

 

Also check related topic:

 

[ifibrin]

16 hours ago, jdm said:

These may not be the best choice, as metal can be too harsh especially in the hands of beginners.

I find that pegwood isn’t so good for turning the smaller KIF trior shock springs, as it doesn’t have enough grip, or it’s difficult to hollow the inner concave enough to twist the outer tabs on the trior  shock spring into the inner lip of the shock block.

Novodiac shock springs appear to be easier to handle with pegwood, as the incabloc shock block appears to have a taper in the inner lip to allow the tab on the shock spring to engage more easily into the inner lip of the shock block.

[LittleWatchShop]

On 10/4/2021 at 9:26 PM, ifibrin said:

I find that pegwood isn’t so good for turning the smaller KIF trior shock springs, as it doesn’t have enough grip, or it’s difficult to hollow the inner concave enough to twist the outer tabs on the trior  shock spring into the inner lip of the shock block

This morning I was faced with the KIF Trior issue.  Wondered what tool to use and found this video and then proceeded to put some GOOD pegwood on the lathe and turn it to the right diameter and then hollow the inside.  It worked.  I have done one only and will do the other later today.

After the first, I came here to learn from the experts.  Interesting to see the comments about replacing them with new springs.  A little surprised to see this.

Also wondering what my Dad did.  I do not find a specific tool for KIF and I know they make them.  Guessing he used pegwood too.  Also, I do not see any stock of replacement springs, I suspect he did not do that.

[ifibrin]

9 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

This morning I was faced with the KIF Trior issue.  Wondered what tool to use and found this video and then proceeded to put some GOOD pegwood on the lathe and turn it to the right diameter and then hollow the inside.  It worked.  I have done one only and will do the other later today.

After the first, I came here to learn from the experts.  Interesting to see the comments about replacing them with new springs.  A little surprised to see this.

Also wondering what my Dad did.  I do not find a specific tool for KIF and I know they make them.  Guessing he used pegwood too.  Also, I do not see any stock of replacement springs, I suspect he did not do that.

Would you be able to provide a close up picture of the hollowed pegwood? Embarrassingly, I actually managed to break the bottom (dial side) pivot of a balance wheel while installing the KIF trior  shock spring on the balance cock side, which I can only imagine was because the metal KIF tool pressed too hard on the balance cock end jewels.

I am very interested to know how to get the hollowed pegwood to get the tabs of the KIF trior shock spring into the inner lip, since in my experience the outer tabs of the trior tend to bend upwards away from the inner lip of the shock block it is meant to slide into.

[LittleWatchShop]

1 hour ago, ifibrin said:

Would you be able to provide a close up picture of the hollowed pegwood? Embarrassingly, I actually managed to break the bottom (dial side) pivot of a balance wheel while installing the KIF trior  shock spring on the balance cock side, which I can only imagine was because the metal KIF tool pressed too hard on the balance cock end jewels.

I am very interested to know how to get the hollowed pegwood to get the tabs of the KIF trior shock spring into the inner lip, since in my experience the outer tabs of the trior tend to bend upwards away from the inner lip of the shock block it is meant to slide into.

I don't think what I made here is all that clever.  It took me several tries on the lathe to get the right diameter.  Once I got the tool to this stage, is was very easy to set the KIF in place.

Just speculating here...but maybe wood is better than metal because you get more friction with wood.  Dunno.

[Nucejoe]

Smaller KIF spring are particularely vulnerable.

There is a tool in set of three sizes for safe removal& repalcement of KIF springs. 

Safer approach is; detach the Oscilator and regulator arm, put the bridge on anvil to proceed with removing the shock spring so in case the pegwood or the tool slips, oscilator isn't there and safe. 

[Nucejoe]

@LittleWatchShop  

[Nucejoe]

Just now, Nucejoe said:

@LittleWatchShop  

Sorry bud, will you just ignore the above post.

I meant to say this local repairshop makes trio KIF tools out of copper on lathe, perhaps you like to consider making one.

Regs

[ifibrin]

3 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I don't think what I made here is all that clever.  It took me several tries on the lathe to get the right diameter.  Once I got the tool to this stage, is was very easy to set the KIF in place.

Just speculating here...but maybe wood is better than metal because you get more friction with wood.  Dunno.

Do you face problems with the wood flaking onto the end jewels? I found that even when the KIF tool worked at securing the trior spring, you could see small gold bits from the metal KIF tool rubbing the gold coloured trior spring.

[ifibrin]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Safer approach is; detach the Oscilator and regulator arm, put the bridge on anvil to proceed with removing the shock spring so in case the pegwood or the tool slips, oscilator isn't there and safe. 

That sounds like a sensible idea, to make sure the trior shock springs are only installed or removed when the balance wheel is not there. This prevents pivot damage from pressing down on the end jewels when manipulating the trior spring.

However, installing and removing balance wheels from the balance cock also has its risks, although I will probably do that for trior in the future.

Turns out learning watchmaking is from one broken part at a time…

[clockboy]

Shock springs are delicate for sure but only if abused do they distort. In theory they should be opened and closed every 5/6 years.

[ifibrin]

46 minutes ago, clockboy said:

Shock springs are delicate for sure but only if abused do they distort. In theory they should be opened and closed every 5/6 years.

For context, I was taking apart, cleaning, reassembling, oiling the same movement twice a week, among a rotation of other movements. Probably got around 5 cycles out of a 2641 with trior shock springs before one of the trior shock springs broke. The Novodiac shock springs in a 2824-2 are still good though, after 30 cycles of complete disassembly/reassembly of the movement.

The trior shock springs have a harder time engaging into the lip of the shock block, compared to the Novodiac shock springs which easily slip into the inner lip of the block.

Edited November 20, 2021 by ifibrin