Elma Watch Cleaning Machine

[Knebo]

I watched the videos. Very interesting indeed, especially regarding the (non-)removal of some greases. A bit disappointing (even though pre-cleaning is a standard procedure, I guess).

I gently press grease-exposed parts (keyless works, barrel..) into Rodico. This removes most visible residuals. I don't have a rotational cleaner and use only a cheap ultrasonic cleaner. It's actually quite effective with the ammoniated cleaners. However, since there's no spinning off of liquids between cycles (only my manual shaking...), I have a lot of cross-contamination from cleaners to rinses. So I have to swap out the liquids too often (costly...).

PS: my thinking is now: after the usual pre-cleaning, I'd put the Elma cleaning jar and basket (when I get the machine...) in my ultrasonic cleaner for 5min. Then I'd move it to the actual cleaning machine for the rotational cleaning process. I'd hope that this could make it perfect.

[VWatchie]

46 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Very interesting indeed, especially regarding the (non-)removal of some greases.

When I got my ELMA rotational-only machine I thought I'd never have to clean by hand again, but oh how wrong I was. At first, I thought it was because I was using the wrong cleaning fluids (ELMA RED 1:9) and planned to try more expensive cleaning fluids from L&R and ELMA, but after watching the videos I linked to, I now realise that it wouldn't have helped.

46 minutes ago, Knebo said:

I gently press grease-exposed parts (keyless works, barrel..) into Rodico.

My method as I think I mentioned, is to brush off the parts in a degreaser. It's effective but not very healthy if you inhale the vapours so from that perspective Rodico may be better but possibly not as efficient!?

To get wheel pinions and pivots clean, I pre-wash them by pressing them into pith wood buttons and to get a better effect, I first drip degreasing (Horosolv) into the pith wood. It works very well and it is critical to get all wheel pinions clinically clean.

Edited October 22, 2024 by VWatchie

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 10/21/2024 at 10:16 AM, Knebo said:

hi @VWatchie, thanks for weighing in! The Elma RM80 is not ultrasonic, it's only rotational but it's otherwise fully automatic. Here's a video.  I certainly don't really need an automatic for the (low) quantity of watches I service, but the offer is in the same price range as the manual Super Elite machines (but I have to drive 4.5h and 4.5 back to get it... no shipping). So I'm basically weighing up only the benefit of automatic cleaning with the risk of more complicated repairs. But price isn't the issue.

Is this one direction only ?

[JohnR725]

On 10/21/2024 at 2:16 AM, Knebo said:

I certainly don't really need an automatic for the (low) quantity of watches I service, but the offer is in the same price range as the manual Super Elite machines (but I have to drive 4.5h and 4.5 back to get it... no shipping). So I'm basically weighing up only the benefit of automatic cleaning with the risk of more complicated repairs. But price isn't the issue.

One of the things when you're looking at cleaning machines of any type is functionality and is everything there? So for instance you get a machine really cheap but it's missing things like the jars are the baskets then the cost will go up considerably especially if you're buying original Elma as their stuff is really expensive. Then if you get bonus baskets and things that's really nice.

1 hour ago, Knebo said:

I'd put the Elma cleaning jar and basket (when I get the machine...) in my ultrasonic cleaner for 5min. Then I'd move it to the actual cleaning machine for the rotational cleaning process. I'd hope that this could make it perfect.

Many years ago one of the shops that I worked at would run the cleaning in a beaker in the ultrasonic tank. Then the rinse was in one of those vintage black L&R machines which they really were meant to last forever which is typical of most watch cleaning machines. Plus I've seen at least one video on YouTube where someone was doing the same thing with that and then the RM 90 machine for the rinsing and drying.

 

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

With me if I consider the movement is more than generally dirty ( i fix mostly 70 + year old watches ) i first remove the pallet fork and balance if they hold schellac...ie. pin lever movements would not...if not then i dont, then suspend the  complete movement intact in a tin of paraffin/petrol for a 15 minute soak and then run the tin through a USM for 3 minutes while using a low rev motor to turn the movement suspension wire...this just helps the cavitations to reach all areas of the movement. Then blow through a dryer for 5 minutes....still turning and a final 2 minute turning dip in IPA to rinse off any residue remaining. This is my pre..pre clean, aids freeing up the movement for better inspection and fault finding before disassembly and makes taking it apart easier...effectively taking a cleaner less stuck together movement apart. I would then hand clean the plates, bridges, any large/medium parts and pinion leafs as well by hand if i thought necessary... depending how well they cleaned up in the first cleaning step and decide if they would benefit from a USM clean as well also spun. If not then just a 3 stage rotary wash proceedure. 

35 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Many years ago one of the shops that I worked at would run the cleaning in a beaker in the ultrasonic tank. 

Do you mean rotating the baskets in a jar in an ultrasonic machine ? I also do this, but i wonder how fast the basket is spun and if there is a revolution speed limit that the cavitations are not as effective. 

A low speed seems to make sense to me.

Edited October 22, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches

[VWatchie]

55 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Do you mean rotating the baskets in a jar in an ultrasonic machine ?

I shouldn't be answering for John, but as I understand it, the idea is not based on rotating the baskets in the ultrasonic cleaner. The method, as I understand it, is to first lower the basket into the ultrasonic cleaner to get the parts clean and then spin, rinse, and dry the parts in the watch cleaning machine.

Edited October 22, 2024 by VWatchie

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

I shouldn't be answering for John, but as I understand it, the idea is not based on rotating the baskets in the ultrasonic cleaner. The method, as I understand it, is to first lower the basket into the ultrasonic cleaner to get the parts clean and then spin, rinse, and dry the parts in the watch cleaning machine.

Gotcha H, i do this but rotate the basket slowly and if the movement is particularly dirty hang it from a wire fully assembled and rotate at around 1 revolution per minute. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 10/20/2024 at 9:01 PM, Knebo said:

I would love to do it your way, but I have absolutely no clue how to do that. I've seen a few projects on this forum and I'm full of admiration but really don't feel capable of recreating them. If you'd do a walk-through... 

The pictures explain the idea. Fully adjustable rotation speed with timed forwards and backwards intervals. Its still in the rough, mainly because i wanted to make sure it works as i want to and to check the heights. The base of the stand will be fully encased in an mdf frame that allows the jars to slide in, lifted up and set down on a pre positioned wooden plate. The drill stand has 80mm of travel through the press....enough to lower and raise baskets into the cleaner. This has cost about 40 quid in total inc. 4 cleaning jars.The stand was a fiver from a boot sale,the motor 13 the programmer 15, power supply for programmer just a quid, 4 jars at 1.50 each and then a few scraps of wood plastic and nuts and bolts....40 quid all in.

[JohnR725]

9 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I shouldn't be answering for John, but as I understand it, the idea is not based on rotating the baskets in the ultrasonic cleaner. The method, as I understand it, is to first lower the basket into the ultrasonic cleaner to get the parts clean and then spin, rinse, and dry the parts in the watch cleaning machine.

Your interpretation of what I said is correct.

In the example of the shop that I once worked at the small ultrasonic machine had a beaker in it. The entire basket was lowered into the beaker with cleaning fluid and it was ultrasonically cleaned. Then it was removed and put on the vintage cleaning machine to complete all the rinsing and drying.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

The basket in the photos holds 5 mini mesh baskets. Others carry 7 and a double decker one will manage 8 then a Pearl / Elma copy is used for a more pieced movement...all of them fit or can be adapted to fit with thread reducers the drill press or the kitchen mixer.... and last is another dc motor suspended over the ultrasonic which also runs from the motor programmer, the metal bowl i float in the US and will carry a balance, a hairspring or a pallet fork  This just covers all my bases.

I'm done with cleaning machines now, i think I've built 6 in total......mk 6 works lovely it just needs a little tarting up

[Neverenoughwatches]

Low budget pre-pre clean

[Knebo]

On 10/20/2024 at 10:48 PM, VWatchie said:

I'd go for the simpler  Super Elite-type machine

In the end, that's what I did 

I'm super happy 

[Knebo]

Today, I used my Elma Super Elite for the first time to clean a movement (I had been waiting for the cleaning fluids to arrive by road from Cousins for 1.5 weeks).

Seriously, what BLISS compared to my previous setup! Now, I'm actually looking forward to the cleaning, while before that was always the task I was dreading. 

Still super happy and excited 

[nickelsilver]

7 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Today, I used my Elma Super Elite for the first time to clean a movement (I had been waiting for the cleaning fluids to arrive by road from Cousins for 1.5 weeks).

Seriously, what BLISS compared to my previous setup! Now, I'm actually looking forward to the cleaning, while before that was always the task I was dreading. 

Still super happy and excited 

I also order fairly often from Cousins, it's just hard to beat their selection and price- but- for stuff like cleaning solutions I definitely buy them here. You can order from Brutsch-Ruegger, Horotec, and Bijoutil (and I'm sure others) without a VAT number or anything. I use Greiner solutions and get them from Brutsch. On that page is also Greiner's concentrate to mix with water that's a great all around cleaner for the ultrasonic.

[Knebo]

Thanks @nickelsilver, I just checked out Brutsch and Bijoutil.

here's a price comparison for a 2.5l canister of Elma WF Pro, including shipping within Switzerland:

Bijoutil:

 

Brutsch:

 

NOW Cousins with international UPS road shipping from UK to Switzerland:

SUM: (29.45 + 16.80) + 20% VAT = 55.50 GBP = 61.90 CHF.

 

Crazy, no!? Cousins is still cheaper!

 

[SwissSeiko]

Speaking of fully automatic machines, has anyone looked in the the Biao Jiang machine? That's my top pick so far, but at $3,100, its not cheap. But I do this for a living so I'm thinking the cost might be worth it, since I'm currently using ultrasonic, and it never quite gets it as clean as I'd like.

[praezis]

32 minutes ago, Knebo said:

SUM: (29.45 + 16.80) + 20% VAT = 55.50 GBP = 61.90 CHF.

Where comes the 20% VAT? You should not be charged UK VAT, just the Swiss VAT.

Frank

[Knebo]

37 minutes ago, praezis said:

Where comes the 20% VAT? You should not be charged UK VAT, just the Swiss VAT.

Frank

Ha! Frank, yes, you caught out my special living situation. I live 1km from the Swiss border, but in France. So from Cousins, I order straight to my home in France (=20% VAT). But to give the Swiss suppliers the best chance to compete with Cousins, I'd have sent it to a Swiss address of a good friend. 

 

(PS: but true, maybe I should also order Cousins to my friend in Switzerland. But I guess there'd be too many parcels... ) 

Edited November 26, 2024 by Knebo