Can anyone help me identify this movement?

[sok76]

Hey everybody,

I’m working on a watch my grandmother gave my sister before she passed away a few years back and I’m giving it a long overdue service. The mainspring and balance staff both require replacement but I’m really struggling to identify it. It says ‘Swiss made’ on the train bridge but that’s it, nothing under the balance or behind the dial. Can anyone help me out please?

[WatchMaker]

Any chance of retaking the pictures? They're 90% green mat so even enlarging things are hazy. Try either zooming in or a macro mode.

Also can you take length and width measurements so we can tell the ligne dimensions of the movement.

Finally was there any maker / company name on the dial face? Certainly this won't be the movement manufacturer but watch companies often used particular manufacturer's movements in their watch ranges.

[Marc]

As @WatchMaker says better pictures and some dimensions may help with the ID.

What I can see though is that it has a cylinder escapement rather than  lever, which means that unless you are familiar with this set up, you may have fun and games with the balance staff issues.

[jdm]

39 minutes ago, Marc said:

What I can see though is that it has a cylinder escapement rather than  lever, which means that unless you are familiar with this set up, you may have fun and games with the balance staff issues.

To expand. The balance pivots are plugs (tampons) into the thin, hollow cylinder. In principle it's possible to to replace these alone but the standard practice was to replace the cylinder complete, making small adjustments to the pivots if necessary. The hard part is having access to a large enough assortment that contains a suitable cylinder. When I did that I was fortunate in having my mentor having the assortment and giving me the related directives, in fairness there weren't too difficult to follow.

Personally, if presented a cylinder watch I would suggest the owner to do only a conservative repair and restauration. That is, the watch runs stable and timekeeping is within minutes a day not seconds. If that can be done keeping all original parts, even better.

[Marc]

2 hours ago, jdm said:

To expand. The balance pivots are plugs (tampons) into the thin, hollow cylinder. In principle it's possible to to replace these alone but the standard practice was to replace the cylinder complete, making small adjustments to the pivots if necessary. The hard part is having access to a large enough assortment that contains a suitable cylinder. When I did that I was fortunate in having my mentor having the assortment and giving me the related directives, in fairness there weren't too difficult to follow.

Personally, if presented a cylinder watch I would suggest the owner to do only a conservative repair and restauration. That is, the watch runs stable and timekeeping is within minutes a day not seconds. If that can be done keeping all original parts, even better.

Thanks @jdm for expanding on my earlier comment. I was pressed for time when I responded and was going to come back and add to it later but you have saved me the effort

[jdm]

7 minutes ago, Marc said:

Thanks @jdm for expanding on my earlier comment. I was pressed for time when I responded and was going to come back and add to it later but you have saved me the effort

No problem, please correct where necessary, after all I have done only one cylinder (small clock), fortunately came out well due to favorable conditions.

[KarlvonKoln]

JDM's advice is very sound.  I have worked on several cylinder escapements.  You need cylinder punches that fit your staking anvil, for making adjustments to the cylinder, and for removing the plugs/tampons.  I got hold of a set of Bergeon's, and they work perfectly.  But as JDM mentioned, regarding replacement, you can't always get the correct-sized cylinder complete.  At that point, I will inspect the pivots to see how much wear they have, and will look at the cylinder for scoring.  If it looks like it could be made sufficiently serviceable with a good cleaning and fresh oil, then I continue servicing the watch.
If I can ever afford a pivot drill setup, then I may learn to re-pivot the plugs.  But right now, I am unsure where to start when it comes to making a new cylinder, so I'm not that far along just yet.  Maybe someday.  But for now, I have my well-stocked staking set, and I'm taking things as they come.
EDIT: if the pivots need it, they can be burnished in a Jacot tool (remaining in the balance cylinder, of course) but if you do that - measure the overall staff length first, and ensure it is the same after burnishing.  Watch for loose plugs.

Edited October 28, 2021 by KarlvonKoln
addition

[sok76]

7 hours ago, WatchMaker said:

Any chance of retaking the pictures? They're 90% green mat so even enlarging things are hazy. Try either zooming in or a macro mode.

Also can you take length and width measurements so we can tell the ligne dimensions of the movement.

Finally was there any maker / company name on the dial face? Certainly this won't be the movement manufacturer but watch companies often used particular manufacturer's movements in their watch ranges.

Thanks for everybody’s help so far. I have a feeling I’ve bitten off more than I chew taking this watch on! Here’s some better photos including measurements.

I’ll remove the balance later and post some photos of what I’m up against.

[jdm]

13 minutes ago, sok76 said:

Here’s some better photos including measurements.

We use a public database (Rannft) for this kind of searches. In this case it was easy to look at all the results as it contains just 4 cylinder mov.ts sized 5.75 x 8.5''', of these none is the one you have.
That's not a problem at all because specific spare parts for what at the time was already an obsolete type are normally not available. But small lots of vintage ladie's are abundant and cheap.
First find why doesn't run, and go from there.
 

[sok76]

2 hours ago, jdm said:

We use a public database (Rannft) for this kind of searches. In this case it was easy to look at all the results as it contains just 4 cylinder mov.ts sized 5.75 x 8.5''', of these none is the one you have.
That's not a problem at all because specific spare parts for what at the time was already an obsolete type are normally not available. But small lots of vintage ladie's are abundant and cheap.
First find why doesn't run, and go from there.
 

Good advice. Thanks again everybody for your help.

[watchweasol]

Hi with some oif these old watches the only method of identification is via the flume or setting lever spring. In the bestfit books there are pages of these setting lever springs and what they are from (models)  Old Hippy put his copies up for down load some time ago and may be found using the search function or they may be obtained from Wm S Macaw's web site on cd they are well worth it if you deal in old/vintage watches.

[WatchMaker]

Hi @sok76

Was meaning to come back to you on this...

If you compare your movement with the dial side of a Derby 34 there are clear similarities...

... but it's not exact.

The movement side is then clearly different (https://17jewels.info/movements/d/derby/derby-34/) but even then the balance arm looks the same as yours.

So did Derby produce a slightly different model? Allow someone to use their basic design etc.?
 

I only mention this because if the watch has sentimental value and therefore you're prepared to go beyond what you might normally then you could take a pretty inexpensive gamble e.g. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/114091780645 or https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/202737470960 once you've done any basic comparison with your balance.

 

 

[sok76]

Hi @WatchMaker,

 

They do seem rather similar don’t they? I think I may go ahead and take a gamble on the eBay lot, as you say they are inexpensive to buy.

That’s some fantastic research you’ve done there, I really appreciate your help!

[jdm]

4 hours ago, WatchMaker said:

The movement side is then clearly different (https://17jewels.info/movements/d/derby/derby-34/) but even then the balance arm looks the same as yours.
So did Derby produce a slightly different model? Allow someone to use their basic design etc.?

That was very common in the Swiss industry: slightly or radically changing the top of the mov.t as in rearranging bridges, using different regulators, finishing etc, to give it another look in order to better sell it. That is why recognizing a caliber is often done from the dial side, which is also where sometime the markings are.
All that being said I went back to Rannf to see if a version was made with a different escapement, which sometime happens, but to no avail.

[WatchMaker]

23 minutes ago, jdm said:

All that being said I went back to Rannf

In this case ranfft.de has a gap in not listing the Derby 34. However Bestfit + 17jewels.info confirm it as a cylinder escapement and given the obvious similarity that's where my observation and advice was coming from.