Pallet fork lubrication: pallets and pivots.

[JohnR725]

Horological lubrication seems to always be a controversial subject. One of the problems we face is how do you know if you're doing it right? Today it's easy with the modern timing machine we can see the amplitude if you do your own watch you can check it over weeks, months, years and see what's going on. Modern timing machines that can measure amplitude are relatively recent so anything before this makes it a lot harder to tell if you're doing it right. Then it doesn't help that the watch companies continuously change their mind on what lubricants to use.

2 hours ago, digginstony said:

This wasn't from oiling the pallet pivots but generally just over oiling

I'm curious as to what your definition is for over oiling? 

The reason why I was asking about over oiling is that's another thing that's changed with time. When I was in school the correct amount was a very very tiny quantity almost invisible anything more was excessive. I'm attaching some images the black and white image comes out of the US Army World War 2 watch repair training manual. So two examples of how not to do it. First it does have to be where it's supposed to be second excessive quantity. But notice the proper quantity?

I'm also attaching images from Rolex and Omega. So notice the minimum quantity in both charts. Omega's minimum is unacceptable to Rolex and that would've been passing in school. The standard now for maximum would've been excessive at one time. Looks like basically if you can still see the top of the pivots and the oil is contained within the oil sink. The watch companies of discovered with time that they super minimalistic doesn't last between servicing.

[digginstony]

Horological lubrication seems to always be a controversial subject. One of the problems we face is how do you know if you're doing it right? Today it's easy with the modern timing machine we can see the amplitude if you do your own watch you can check it over weeks, months, years and see what's going on. Modern timing machines that can measure amplitude are relatively recent so anything before this makes it a lot harder to tell if you're doing it right. Then it doesn't help that the watch companies continuously change their mind on what lubricants to use.

I'm curious as to what your definition is for over oiling? 

The reason why I was asking about over oiling is that's another thing that's changed with time. When I was in school the correct amount was a very very tiny quantity almost invisible anything more was excessive. I'm attaching some images the black and white image comes out of the US Army World War 2 watch repair training manual. So two examples of how not to do it. First it does have to be where it's supposed to be second excessive quantity. But notice the proper quantity?

I'm also attaching images from Rolex and Omega. So notice the minimum quantity in both charts. Omega's minimum is unacceptable to Rolex and that would've been passing in school. The standard now for maximum would've been excessive at one time. Looks like basically if you can still see the top of the pivots and the oil is contained within the oil sink. The watch companies of discovered with time that they super minimalistic doesn't last between servicing.

Unfortunately when I first started I had a book on watch repair but I was fairly ignorant. firstly on how to use an oiler correctly, going into the area at a 45° angle with too much oil that probably drew more oil away from the area than lubricate. To compensate I used more oil . Also the grade of oil was too thick.
Today for pivots I use 9010 . I go into the area with the oiler vertically. Removing any surplus with rodico. Then I didn't even know what rodico was. At one point I almost just gave up. Years later I'm still learning and this Forum really is an "Oasis in the desert"
It's not just about what oil, how much oil but how it's applied, to achieve a successful outcome. Apologies for rambling on

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[chaplin37]

I know your not supposed to oil the pallet fork jewels but I have a ladies elgin that has a cap jewel on the dial side. Should I oil that?

[jdrichard]

It it has a cap jewel, then clean the jewel and the cap and carefully oil the cap and return in in place. My opinion.


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[szbalogh]

18 hours ago, jdrichard said:

It it has a cap jewel, then clean the jewel and the cap and carefully oil the cap and return in in place. My opinion.


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No oil on the pallet fork pivots. Only on the pallets. 

[chaplin37]

I never oil the pallet for pivots only the pallets and i havent oiled the cap jewel; however, the watch is running excellent in all directions but as soon as you put the watch dial side down it runs extremely slow which makes me wonder since this has a cap jewel should it be oiled just a little bit.

[roverguybm]

20 hours ago, chaplin37 said:

I know your not supposed to oil the pallet fork jewels....? 

You're not...?

[jdrichard]

Why would the jewel have a cap? If not to retain the oil?


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[Lambchop]

Hello

for clarification - ALWAYS oil the entry and exit pallet jewels.  NEVER oil the pivots for the pallet on a jewelled wristwatch. 

James

[Marc]

5 hours ago, jdrichard said:

Why would the jewel have a cap? If not to retain the oil?


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To control end shake.

[szbalogh]

5 hours ago, jdrichard said:

Why would the jewel have a cap? If not to retain the oil?

Here also it depends on the size of the watch. In this case a ladies size watch, definitively no oil for the fork pivots. Why? That pivot is not turning in the hole jewel just flipping in a small angle. On the other hand, torque is the smallest here and it has a really small weight. Even the finest oil could make it stick. 

I have an acquaintance at TAG Heuer, i was speaking to him  two days ago for two hours and half hour we were just talking about this topic  they dont apply oil on the pivots just on the pallets. 

But, to add my own experience. I did not know of this in the beginning (tinkering watches only for 2 years now) i was applying oil there and those watches are still working fine. Maybe we could see something unwanted noise on the timegrapher in scope mode caused by the slow switching of the fork. 

Edited August 18, 2017 by szbalogh

[oldhippy]

You do not oil the pallet pivots.

[Watchfixr]

The age old argument goes on! I never oil the pallet fork hole jewels or pivots. However, if there is a cap jewel I do put a tiny drop of 9010 on the center before installing it. Never had a problem doing it that way. I agree the jewel is there to reduce end shake, but also think a pivot running on a dry cap jewel will add friction. This debate has been going on for many years and will certainly not be solved today. We will have to agree to disagree as watchmakers have done for generations!

[MrRoundel]

Here is my "new" take on oiling pallet pivots.

I had one of "those" watches hanging around my bench for a while.  You know, the one that just seems like it wont' run right? Well, after working on wrist-watches for a while now, and learning not to oil the pallet pivots on them,  I decided to apply this knowledge to a ladies pendant watch that always seemed to run sluggishly. It was a little over a year ago that I cleaned and oiled it, but still it ran with poor motion. It was poor enough that it would stop. I figured that I could put a new mainspring in it to give it bit more get-up-and-go, but hadn't as of yet. Then it dawned on me that I may have done this watch before I learned not to oil pallet pivots on watches smaller than a 3/0 or so. This one is a 6/0 Waltham Sapphire from their Jewel Series of movements. I decided that rather than cleaning it again, I'd just pull the pallet-bridge and clean the jewels with some pegwood, as well as clean off the pivots in some Rodico. See the before and after videos from this morning. The first is obviously the way it ran with pivots that were likely oiled like any other wheel pivot. The second is after the quick pegging and reassembling.

After looking at these videos, does anyone still think it's a good idea to oil the pallet pivots on small watches? I should think not. Cheers.

 

MAH00270.MP4

MAH00271.MP4

Edited March 12, 2018 by MrRoundel

[rappeleur]

48 minutes ago, MrRoundel said:

...
After looking at these videos, does anyone still think it's a good idea to oil the pallet pivots on small watches? I should think not. Cheers....

Quite impressive indeed! Have you checked on a timegrapher if the speed changed (is it running faster now?)?

Edited March 12, 2018 by rappeleur

[MrRoundel]

3 hours ago, rappeleur said:

Quite impressive indeed! Have you checked on a timegrapher if the speed changed (is it running faster now?)?

No I haven't. I don't have a timing machine at this time. I had one, but it was a vintage one where there was none of the special paper for it left on the planet, so I parted it out for its tubes and cool Watchmaster badge. A couple of the tubes, 12ax7's, were Amperex Bugle-boys, which are highly desirable for guitar amplifiers, etc. But I digress. No, I haven't timed this one, but the motion looks more "normal" than it did. Cheers.

 

[mikepilk]

No I wouldn't, but according to Citizen you should.

Rebuilding a Citizen cal 5204, and as there are so many bits (springs, springs, springs !) I downloaded the service manual.

In both the 'General Oiling' section, and the specific movement section, they recommend a touch of oil on the pallet pivots.

Do any other movements recommend this?

I've only done this to curb excessive amplitude.

[meanoldmanning]

I’ve noticed there are Seiko service manuals that call for oiling the pallet pivots as well, ranging from tiny vintage 2517 mov’ts to the recent 7s series. The only reason I’ve ever heard to do this was to suppress over banking

 

 

 

 

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[watchweasol]

Hi     If it is quoted by the manufacturer then its ok to do so but only with the correct lubricant, again the manufacturers recomended oil, If you have not got that then don't do it . The action of the fork is crucial to the timing and any old oil can make them sluggish affecting the balance aplitude

[hairspringdestroyer]

As a  beginner I have been routinely oiling mine so its nice to know i shouldn't be and i have found another piece of the puzzle, thank you.

[JohnR725]

It's generally frowned upon to oil the pallet fork pivots. If you put the watch on a timing machine before and after you will usually see a small decrease in amplitude. If with time the lubrication gets more sticky that decrease of amplitude will be more dramatic.

Seiko as mentioned above does recommend oiling the pivots sort of? If you go through their tech sheets sometimes they do sometimes they don't. The other strange thing for Seiko is if you have multiple generations of service sheets even for a particular caliber sometimes they do sometimes they don't and unfortunately they do not explain why.

[mikepilk]

17 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

It's generally frowned upon to oil the pallet fork pivots. If you put the watch on a timing machine before and after you will usually see a small decrease in amplitude. If with time the lubrication gets more sticky that decrease of amplitude will be more dramatic.

Seiko as mentioned above does recommend oiling the pivots sort of? If you go through their tech sheets sometimes they do sometimes they don't. The other strange thing for Seiko is if you have multiple generations of service sheets even for a particular caliber sometimes they do sometimes they don't and unfortunately they do not explain why.

I don't want to lose any amplitude - it's only showing about 230 deg with a new mainspring.

Hopefully it will increase a bit after running for a day. 

I know Japanese movements are renowned for low amplitude, but I'm a disappointed to see such low amplitude, especially as the gear train seemed so good - and it's a 33 jewel movement. 

If I don't hit 240 deg I'll take it apart and try to find the problem.

I wonder if the mainspring is slipping too soon, as it does seem easy to wind, and I can't feel any point when the tension builds, and then slips a bit.

[JohnR725]

Then when posting amplitude/timing results more than one position is desirable typically one dial position either up or down and a pendant/crown position like crown down.

Up problem with a lot of the watches are the lack of technical documentation. Like for instance what is the lift angle of this watch? I was trying to figure out if there's a base caliber or anything that similar? So the only listing I have a anything close numerically as 5240 and 5250 both of those are 46°. Not a Lot of difference from 52 but it will change things a little bit if yours is similar

Then a lot of watch companies don't worry about the amplitude when it's fully wound up They are more concerned about what it's doing 24 hours later. So while a high amplitude is good a consistent amplitude would be better over at least 24 hours.

How did you oil the pallet stones and which lubrication? Also how Did you lubricate the mainspring and the outer barrel wall?

 

[meanoldmanning]

I know Japanese movements are renowned for low amplitude, but I'm a disappointed to see such low amplitude, especially as the gear train seemed so good - and it's a 33 jewel movement.

 

Renowned for low amplitude compared to Swiss mov’ts with ~300 degrees amp. Too many hobbyists seem to think anything around 200 is ok on Seikos. I personally feel it’s not acceptable to settle for amplitude below the mid 200s on the Japanese makes and apparently you feel the same.

 

I’d go back through and check cleanliness. Peg out everything and pith all the pivots. Check oiling. If pivots are worn significantly you may have to settle for lackluster performance unfortunately as Citizen spares are hard to come by.

 

 

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[mikepilk]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Then when posting amplitude/timing results more than one position is desirable typically one dial position either up or down and a pendant/crown position like crown down.

Up problem with a lot of the watches are the lack of technical documentation. Like for instance what is the lift angle of this watch? I was trying to figure out if there's a base caliber or anything that similar? So the only listing I have a anything close numerically as 5240 and 5250 both of those are 46°. Not a Lot of difference from 52 but it will change things a little bit if yours is similar

Then a lot of watch companies don't worry about the amplitude when it's fully wound up They are more concerned about what it's doing 24 hours later. So while a high amplitude is good a consistent amplitude would be better over at least 24 hours.

How did you oil the pallet stones and which lubrication? Also how Did you lubricate the mainspring and the outer barrel wall?

 

I used Moebius 8217 on the barrel wall and 9415 on the pallets.