Swiss watch industry: perception and reality

[david]

One of the underlying problems is the mindset of the watch buying public implying  that a watch part made on a Japanese machine in Switzerland is better than a watch part made on a Japanese machine in China, USA,  England, Australia, France, Germany or anywhere else in the world that has the machinery.  The major watch factories in Switzerland offer a public perception that their watches are made by Swiss watchmakers who, by virtue of birth, are better suited to make quality watches. This is great salesmanship on their part but,  in truth, their watches are designed with Cad/Cam software,  made with stamping presses,  CNC lathes, milling machines and wire EDM machines.   Watch factories require designers, engineers, CNC programmers, set up technicitions, tool and die makers, assemblers and polishers. The one thing watch factories have the least need for are watchmakers.    The point is, watch parts can be made almost anywhere to precise dimensions and tolerances. There is a video on YouTube showing a technician at the Patek Phillippe factory making a watch pivot on a WW Watchmaker lathe.  They want the public to believe that this guy can crank out 65,000 plus watch pivots a year using a graver.  This is sales fluff.  Watch pivots are made on CNC lathes fed by a huge roll of pivot wire.   The pivots are designed by engineers, the CNC machine is programmed by a CNC programmer and the lathe is set up by a CNC set up technician.    In the end a watch gear,  a lever, stem, pivot or any other part on a watch can be made in Switzerland or outside of Switzerland.   If the watch buying public could realize this the Swiss watch factories would choke on their own greed.

david 

[WatchWood]

39 minutes ago, david said:

.....  If the watch buying public could realize this the Swiss watch factories would choke on their own greed.

david 

Is it greed or are they just feeding off the appetite fuelled by the likes of utube influencers? There are masses of 'watch' channels out there now, all touting the same message and people lap it up. Sooner or later there will be a massive crash in the 'value' that some of these watches are perceived to have - it's starting to look like Tulipmania?  I watched a video a few days ago where the guy showed his new 30k+ watch he had just bought only to confess it will be kept in his bank safe because it's too valuable (and too risky due to the liklihood of theft) to wear out! That won't be needing spare parts! Another issue I'm seeing more of is the one about servicing not really being necessary so those customers won't be requiring spare parts either!

The only solution I see with resolving the spare parts issue is if the right-to-repair legislation is broadened to encompass mechanical items and I am certain there is much lobbying going on right now to stop it.

 

[watchweasol]

Unfortunatly what you describe is potentially true. The parts can be made anywhere and probably are where the labour costs are lower than the host countries. which leads down the profit route. How many parts in the Rolex are actually made in the Swiss factory, how many are assembled in the swiss factory. As long as the perception remains that they all are people will buy them thinking that this is the creme de la creme made and assembled i, n Switzerland.  The actuality may be far from that. Its all down to advertising and propaganda.

[spectre6000]

You're singing my song! I [i]hate[/i] that sort of chauvinism... I almost didn't buy a BMW once because of it. Porsches are worse though... Not every Porsche owner pronounces it like the thing attached to the front of your house, but [i]way[/i] too many of them do...

It's the same in watchdom. My mind goes to the ETA 2824-2 (and copies/derivatives) in every damn watch for sale it seems. Or better yet an ETA 7750. I knew a guy who had a $45K gold Breitling. He was so proud that he spent $45K on it, and I had a hard time keeping my face in check... That's a REALLY expensive 7750... I think IWC is another brand that sells pretty boring movements at really not-boring prices. Then there's the same flavor of nose angling over Sellita movements being somehow inferior to ETA... Sellita [i]MADE[/i] ETA's movements! A 2824-2 is zero percent better than a SW200, and it's probably the other way around (doesn't the SW200 have an extra jewel? I'm too lazy to look it up for the hypothetical argument with no one). They're machines. If we're honest, they're not even very good ones since a $1 quartz movement will blow most of them out of the water.

Admittedly, I will say I prefer your typical Swiss movements over your typical Japanese movements, BUT that's because of the finishing. I fully acknowledge it's an aesthetic thing, and I'd probably still take a better spec'd Japanese movement over a lower spec Swiss movement... 

[david]

`Next time you take a factory made high end designer  watch apart, look carefully at the edges of the movement parts.  You should be able to see  marks left from  the stamping operation. The watches that don't have stamping press punch and die marks are the watches made by cabonitiers machining one piece at a time.  One cannot make 20,000 to 200,000 watches per year  machining one part at a time by hand.  The "high end" designer brands try to get rid of the stamping marks by sending the stamped parts to the polishing department before assembly.  Many parts inside the $60,000.00 + designer watch are made with a stamping press,  the dials are mass production printed with a pad press. 

david 

[WatchWood]

Out of interest; suppose you are the king of high-end watches, producing around 800,000 units a year - how many watchmakers would be needed to hand-assemble that number?

[jdm]

2 hours ago, WatchWood said:

suppose you are the king of high-end watches, producing around 800,000 units a year 

Are you talking about Rolex? They are not high end, when a watch made of precious materials starting about CHF 6,000. Not much different from Omega. 

There are at least two or three segments above Rolex, ending with haute horologerie and independent watchmaking. 

Do all of these use deceiving advertising? I don't think so. In fact some do make little or no advertising at all.

Going back to Rolex, i recall a discussion where someone owning a vintage one would have to sent it to Switzerland repair, he was told that if any parts were needed to be made anew, the cost would have, of course, increased. I believe that there is little automation and much watchmaking in doing that. 

[david]

2 hours ago, jdm said:

he was told that if any parts were needed to be made anew, the cost would have, of course, increased.

 The customer may have been told that but the reality is far different.  A good example is a broken pivot on a Rolex.   A good watchmaker in any country can make a good watch staff from quality drill rod. The mindset that a quality watch staff can only be made by a genetically superior  master race in a Swiss watch factory is the arrogant  sales garbage that George Daniels went up against for years.  There should be no doubt in anybody's mind that  watch staffs made by George Daniels, Roger Smith, Stephin Pahlow or anybody else who produces a correctly made watch staff are high quality parts.  

 Large production watch factories purchase their pivot wire in large rolls; not in bags full of short pieces. In the past, when the process was automated (first by the Waltham Factory in the 1800s) the staffs were turned on CAM CONTROLLED LATHES known as SCREW MACHINES.  Later development led first to NC (punched tape controlled) and now CNC (computer controlled) machines.  Setting the machines up to produce parts is an  up front time consuming task and, for a 50 to 100,000+ million dollar a year watch factory, it is an expense. Once the machine is set up and producing in tolerance parts, the factories run thousands of extra parts  

Now when somebody goes to their country club wearing a $60,000.00 Rolex and forgets to take the watch off,  the pivot snaps when he swings a golf club and the watch stops working. The watch is sent back to the factory, the factory replaces the broken staff with one from their spare parts bin, and tells the customer that the reason for the multi thousand dollar repair charge is they had to make the part by hand;  they didn't.  

david

[jdm]

1 hour ago, david said:

The mindset that a quality watch staff can only be made by a genetically superior  master race in a Swiss watch factory is the arrogant  sales garbage that George Daniels went up against for years.

Never seen any Rolex avertising which propels this notion, actually the message carried seems to be different one to me. Note I don't care a bit about Rolex or for that matter the entire Swiss industry.

Incidentally, with all the admiration for independant watchmakers, I find them to be a bit out of place when diverting from their specific field of knowledge, but that would be digressing.

 

1 hour ago, david said:

Large production watch factories purchase their pivot wire in large rolls

Again, I don't think that anybody doubts that the for large volumes, production (as in making parts) is entirely automatic. However, do you have knowledge if the assembly is automated with robots as well? E.g. Seiko is known to do that for all the entry level mov.ts, but not for the Grand Seiko, and these sell in not so small quantities.

 

1 hour ago, david said:

The watch is sent back to the factory, the factory replaces the broken staff with one from their spare parts bin, and tells the customer that the reason for the multi thousand dollar repair charge is they had to make the part by hand;  they didn't.  

I wrote about about vintage Rolex, as in 60 years old or more. Of course ready balance staffs are immediately available for current and recent models to any official service center, the watch doesn't need to go to Switzerland for that kind of repair. Then if a Swiss or anybody else lies and charges an eye for an official repair or service of a watch or other product, is of course dishonest, but not unknown. And to be blunt is not that I feel for the rich gold Rolex owner either.

Anyway, what I am trying to say I that I find ridiculous to say that like of AP, PP, VC, and in their own segment Rolex, Omega, and another Swiss 100 brands or so do not hire excellent watchmakers, of which a good many could make a complete mov.t by himself. But they all work for the profit of the employer, which like it or not, comes abundant.

[david]

Here is one operation that is fully automated.  The others are automated as far as their particular product will allow. The degree to which the automated assembly is taken has to do with the quantity of products produced. Industrial engineers calculate a cost per product ratio before investing in the equipment.  The individual parts for the "high end" and "low end" watches are made on the same equipment.  The major  difference between what is called a "cheap" watch and a "high end watch".   is the polishing and assembly. The face of the Swatch watch is printed with a pad printer.  The face of the Patek Philippe watch is also printed with a pad printer.  The face of a George Daniels watch or a Roger Smith watch is either engraved with a rose machine or hand engraved. 

As far as the sales program goes,   high end watches are advertised. The ads just aren't distributed to the general public.  They  are placed in information sources geared toward those who can afford to buy them.  You would be likely to find their magazine ads in the waiting room of a Rolls Royce car dealership or the saleroom of a company that sells corporate jets.  

david

[jdm]

43 minutes ago, david said:

The face of the Swatch watch is printed with a pad printer.  The face of the Patek Philippe watch is also printed with a pad printer.  The face of a George Daniels watch or a Roger Smith watch is either engraved with a rose machine or hand engraved.

I am sorry to say, but you are talking loke some on the most biased watch enthusiasts on some forums, on topic like "my favorite brand is better than your".

You are trying to devaluate those that you don't like as they e.g. pad print dials, but praise who you like as Daniels and Smith, because they do rose or engrave them. But unlike the "top 3 Swiss", Smith is an indipendent watchmaker not making more than 85 - 100 pieces a year

https://www.watchtime.com/featured/great-briton-the-watchmaking-wizardry-of-roger-w-smith/

I think you will find indipendent watchmakers in Switzerland that also make elaborated dials. Others do movement work that is simply astonishing. Some do by hand, some by CNC, different skills for different taste, not everyone has to like the same things. Fortunately there are also indipendant watchmakers in other places of the world, all doing their best.

Also the video you linked is about the "worst" of Swiss mechanical production, Swatch System 51. Perhaps is good to make money for Swatch, but for sure is not appreciated by Western buyers. It has, fortunately little to do with other parts of the Swiss  industry, which technically speaking,  is undoubitably one of great excellence. 

I think it's good for anyone willing to become knowledgeable about watches, Swiss and not, to keep an agnostic posture whilst gathering the factual information. The watch industry is a wide context one, there is no good or bad guy, all players are driven by profit. If one doesn't like that, better not to look at it.

 

 

[spectre6000]

1 hour ago, jdm said:

I am sorry to say, but you are talking loke some on the most biased watch enthusiasts on some forums, on topic like "my favorite brand is better than your".

You are trying to devaluate those that you don't like as they e.g. pad print dials, but praise who you like as Daniels and Smith, because they do rose or engrave them. But unlike the "top 3 Swiss", Smith is an indipendent watchmaker not making more than 85 - 100 pieces a year

I'm not sure I agree with that assessment. He's essentially putting everyone on an even footing, but allowing for exceptions to the specific example.

Said another way, one pad printed dial is no better than another because one name is carved on the pad vs another. There exceptions where dials are hand engraved, or printed on meteorite slices or whatever other special thing, but exceptions aside, a dial remains a dial. Does a Patek dial deserve any special consideration because the letters "a", "e", "k", "p", and "t" (alpha order) are on it in some particular order? No. It's still a little disc of brass with paint on it applied in a particular way. If a dial is actually somehow different (per noted exceptions and others), then it warrants different consideration, and likely a different price.

 

Edited November 7, 2021 by spectre6000

[david]

Other than pointing out that there is a bias, I have no other particular bias and am not taking anyone on.  The purpose of a forum is to discuss ideas; not to pressure everybody to think in lockstep. All I am doing is presenting facts. I have no dislike of expensive "high end" Swiss watches nor do I have a dislike of the Swatch watches.   I am only presenting an element of reality as to what they are, which isn't what people think they are. Most people think that if they purchase a $65,000.00 Swiss watch, they are getting a unique product made by the hand of a highly trained, highly skilled Swiss watchmaker.  What they are in fact getting is a watch assembled from mass produced parts.   If others are blinded by a designer label mindset then by all means,  take the lead of ARCHIE LUXURY and go for the designer label product. 

I already know about the mindset of other forum members,  from previous posts, when they  voiced opinions implying  that only Bergeon screwdrivers are worthy of removing a screw. I have Bergeon screwdrivers and use them but I also have other screwdrivers that I use.  I view a screwdriver as a tool and it either does what it was designed and built to do or it does not. From my perspective emotion, passion and designer label bias has nothing to do with it. 

If somebody buys a BMW or a Mercedes  thinking that is a better car than a Toyota, it is their money.  All I did was add up the cost to keep it running over a 5 year period. That is why I got rid of my Mercedes and replaced it with a Toyota. 

[nickelsilver]

I actually agree with David basically. In the last 20-25 years the price of "exclusive" watches has taken a hyperbolic leap. Maybe not literally, but it's far from linear from years before. There was an excellent article on this  in a major watch mag a few years ago but I haven't been able to dig it up. Essentially the price of "high end" watches has exceeded the price of inflation by x percent and as Ben Franklin would agree that sh!t compounds and is a force to reckon with.

 

As for brands trying to f*ck people on repair of vintage pieces: I do repair/restoration for a Big Brand. I regularly make balance staffs and stems, less often vibrate hairsprings, sometimes make pinions, winding pinions, fill in the blank. They don't pay me to make these because they have a secret stock of parts that are worth more than my time- they don't have the parts. Some of these are from the 60s (most much older- my point is lower production number 'rare" movements means fewer spare parts) and there are simply no parts available. So a dude makes them, and if anything they  take a hit so the customer is happy with a reasonable repair price.

Edited November 8, 2021 by nickelsilver

[jdm]

16 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

Does a Patek dial deserve any special consideration because the letters "a", "e", "k", "p", and "t" (alpha order) are on it in some particular order? No.

Of course it does not. On the other hand (pun intended), not all dials, before and after completion, are made equal. Have you ever read a thread on a luxury watches forum or watch blog. They put them under the microscope looking and comparing the most minuscole detail. From that close is true that a CHF100 watch dial is not exactly the same as a 1,000 one and much less a 10,000 one. Personally I find that boring and and bit obsessive, but reality it's the essence of high value watchmaking, relatively small differences make a big difference in price (called value by makers), and the message is that the buyer able to recognize that is rewarded by already for being so discerning.

 

15 hours ago, david said:

I am only presenting an element of reality as to what they are, which isn't what people think they are. Most people think that if they purchase a $65,000.00 Swiss watch, they are getting a unique product made by the hand of a highly trained, highly skilled Swiss watchmaker.  What they are in fact getting is a watch assembled from mass produced parts.  

OK, you made this point already and is clear. But beside that I don't know if it is most, or some (very rich) people, in some way you're barking up the wrong tree; this is not a luxury watches forum, neither in terms of real, or desired ownership. Actually there is no discussion at all about trading watches, except for some costing GPB 4.04 or a bit more which are then brought to a new life. Personally, I like that.

 

13 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

 In the last 20-25 years the price of "exclusive" watches has taken a hyperbolic leap.

So it happened with cryptocurrency, and likely other legal stuff one can trade. If we go to find why that happened, I think we will find it has nothing to do with the love of fine watches. So why being scandalized by watches only? At least these made some smart individual more rich with something that still physically exist, unlike the energy used for crypto mining, all of which has became unreversible pollution.

 

4 hours ago, Stian said:

The problem with Chinese manufacturing is not abilty, it is quality control.

This topic was in particular about Swiss Made watches, which can use up to 40% of foreign (Chinese) components, and still carry the label. The Chinese watch industry and all other of their products in general is also an enormously interesting subject, but I think it would be better discussed separately.

 

[WatchWood]

14 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

... Does a Patek dial deserve any special consideration because the letters "a", "e", "k", "p", and "t" (alpha order) are on it in some particular order?

I don't know if anyone watches the talking hands that is Watchfinder (youtube) but Patek was put up for sale after the 1930's stock market crash and the company that bought it was..............the company that supplied the dials. Still the current owners.

[KarlvonKoln]

14 hours ago, david said:

If somebody buys a BMW or a Mercedes  thinking that is a better car than a Toyota, it is their money.  All I did was add up the cost to keep it running over a 5 year period. That is why I got rid of my Mercedes and replaced it with a Toyota. 

This much I can understand and sympathize with.  I am among many who cannot afford to consider a luxury brand, unless I could get it non-running for a pittance and repair it.  
I think we have seen desires following trends, and then trends following desires, and a viscous circle perpetuating itself for a while.  Those who can afford such brands have been willing to pay quite a bit for them, and you can only sell something for whatever someone will pay.  In the end, that is the essence of their *monetary* worth.
For folk of lesser means, like myself and others, for daily wear we just look for the most accurate watch we can afford that will give us the least trouble and be rugged enough to last a long time.  My old Bulova is great for that.
My antique Longines pocket watch, that I bought for a song and repaired, is a beautiful example of what the Swiss could do.  It is a thoroughly marvelous mechanism.  I could see why people would spend lots of money to have something like that - it's art.  Art is expensive because of the intense desire it creates, and because of the rarity (or perceived rarity).  If an eye-catching Swiss watch is to someone's taste and they can afford it, not much will stop them from buying it.  Even if they knew what was inside, often they will still want it, not always simply for the name, but because it is what they want.  Demand sometimes drives the market.  And reputation (that of the Swiss) can last a long time.  
Some are jewelry and are priced and appraised as such.  And some just do an excellent job of showing the time.  And if folks like me are lucky, we can snatch up a really accurate watch so that we aren't late for things.  The trends of the luxury-goods markets are a bit beyond our humble finger tips.

[jdm]

Two posts about the Chinese watch industry have been split to the new topic below. Please continue that discussion there.