Confused newbie with questions

[JS335]

I'm confused about movements and the correlations between them.  I've seen a lot of movements that are labeled with the watch brand's name and reference number and something like (ETA XXXX).  I'm thinking that means that the movement was actually made by ETA or that it's essential the same movement as the correlating ETA movement. 

My general question is, are most movements related in some way to an ETA movement?  Also, how interchangeable are movement parts.  For example, let's say I need a new sliding pinion for a certain movement.  Would I need to find a part that says it's specifically for my exact movement?  Would any sliding pinion for a wristwatch work or is there any general rule of thumb for finding a part that will work with my movement?

My brain hurts just from writing this.  Thanks in advance.

[Nucejoe]

ETA was/is an expansionist company, they bought many of other brands, so in a way yes applies to your question, as they have used some of the design, parts, know- how all under one hood which made ETA a big brand, another big movement manufactirer is AS ( adolf Shields) some brands merged or formed  groups, some movement  are still  in- house, but thats not going to help much with interchangabilities or identifification of a piece ..etc.

Dr ranfft lists member of a family that make  the entire generation of a caliber( go to Dr ranffts website ) and see a base caliber( commonly a manual wind)  and its variants, including modification and new families. A new family usually  beats  faster, a new member usually got more jewels or have been otherwise modified.

Most parts interchange between members of a family or even generations as listed by Dr ranfft. 

You can find more about groups of brands listed in Timezone forum.

Regs

[JS335]

39 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

ETA was/is an expansionist company, they bought many of other brands, so in a way yes applies to your question, as they have used some of the design, parts, know- how all under one hood which made ETA a big brand, another big movement manufactirer is AS ( adolf Shields) some brands merged or formed  groups, some movement  are still  in- house, but thats not going to help much with interchangabilities or identifification of a piece ..etc.

Dr ranfft lists member of a family that make  the entire generation of a caliber( go to Dr ranffts website ) and see a base caliber( commonly a manual wind)  and its variants, including modification and new families. A new family usually  beats  faster, a new member usually got more jewels or have been otherwise modified.

Most parts interchange between members of a family or even generations as listed by Dr ranfft. 

You can find more about groups of brands listed in Timezone forum.

Regs

Thanks very much.

 

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, JS335 said:

Thanks very much

Actually Dr ranfft has packed more info for each caliber than meets the eyes at first. 

Julesborel.com is currently offline , I guess its being updated. It list parts to  most calibers ever made also contains info on some interchangable parts.    

When in does get back online, you will find tons of information there.

[jdm]

4 hours ago, JS335 said:

My general question is, are most movements related in some way to an ETA movement? 

No. There were, and still there are, an huge variety of Swiss manufacturers, some sold much more than others and are more likely to be encountered in the low price segment.

 

4 hours ago, JS335 said:

Also, how interchangeable are movement parts. 

Only within the same family of mov.t. Theee are document that list common parts. Search here for the bestfit catalogue posted by Oldhippy that has a lot of this type of information.

[watchweasol]

https://www.timewornwatches.co.uk/manufacturers/ebauche-movements/

The word ebauche means incomplete movement. In the past there were lots of manufacturers of watch movements , Finishers would buy these incomplete (ebauche) watches and finish them put them in their cases with their name on the dial. Therefor it was possible then and now to purchase two watches with different dial names (finishers) with the exact same movement with mods by the finisher. Now when trying to locate parts the vital information is the maker (stamp under balance wheel or on the top plate or the rotor in automatics) and the caliber number for example     AS 1215  or ETA 251.262 as these numbers relate to the specific watch. Through the web site Dr Ranfft as mentioned by Joe you can find the base movement caliber and all the derivitives built from that base which can be several, thats why the caliber number is important.

Have a look at the link posted for a little more detail.   cheers

[canthus]

Think of the movements as automobiles.  There can be several 'models' (Fiesta, Kuga, Focus etc) in many 'brands' (Ford, Volvo Seat etc) of which many are part of major groups (PSG, VW GM etc).  It is likely some or many parts within a model will be compatible, less so across brands and very unlikely across groups.  So a movement might be ETA2824 which means it is a model 2824 of the ETA brand, whilst ETA is part of the Swatch Group which includes Omega for example who have their own models. There may be some interchangeability between ETA models but unlikely between ETA brands and extremely unlikely between Swatch and other groups.  ETA is only one example, the analogy would apply to other brands such as AS, FF etc.  It should be noted that not all brands make their own movements or model/brand, but buy in from other model/brands.  Much like engines being used in specialist cars etc, PSG and GM groups are typical.  Also some model/brands do not make the full car (ie watch) but supply the main transmissions (watch movement), eg Sellita.

Now your even more confused !!!!

[JS335]

Fantastic info as always folks, thank you.  I'm taking the Watch Repair Courses now and am learning a lot.  Mark mentions that it's important to know the part numbers to make ordering parts easier.  It seems to me finding parts for less common movements, such as the Wittnauer C11BG I'm working on is extremely difficult if not impossible.

I guess the lesson is, research the movement to see how available parts may be before purchasing.  

[Nucejoe]

 Does Wittnauer C11BG have calandar?     

AS 1201  which lacks calandar and Whittnauer 11BG  are the same,  the prefix C could indicate calandar, if so then whittnauer C11BG is a member of AS1201 family. 

Brands generally put their own designations on non in-house movements.

 

[Nucejoe]

I just looked up an image of  C11BG  , its the last in house Certina movement, so prefix C could stand for Certina and its got a calandar complication too.   

  We both are confused.   now.

 

[watchweasol]

Whittenaur C11BG sheet is elusive but fid attached the AS1201 parts sheet so you may make a comparison with your movement.       chees

2450_AS 1200,1201.pdf

[JS335]

10 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 Does Wittnauer C11BG have calandar?     

AS 1201  which lacks calandar and Whittnauer 11BG  are the same,  the prefix C could indicate calandar, if so then whittnauer C11BG is a member of AS1201 family. 

Brands generally put their own designations on non in-house movements.

 

Yes it does.  The date wheel is one of the parts I'm hoping to find a replacement for.  

[Nucejoe]

47 minutes ago, JS335 said:

Yes it does.  The date wheel is one of the parts I'm hoping to find a replacement for.  

C11BG movement is in house Certina made. I am not sure if its based on AS1201.   

[Nucejoe]

Certina is a good grade watch.  You might want to practice on a cheap movement, not a Certina.

 

 

 

[Marc]

23 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

I just looked up an image of  C11BG  , its the last in house Certina movement, so prefix C could stand for Certina and its got a calandar complication too.   

  We both are confused.   now.

 

@Nucejoe where did you find the reference that the Whittenaur C11BG was a Certina movement?

All of my searches have it coming up as an AS1230.

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, Marc said:

@Nucejoe where did you find the reference that the Whittenaur C11BG was a Certina movement?

All of my searches have it coming up 

 I think I saw picture of a movement online engraved as Certina C11BG. 

Either a classic brain fart ( mine) or covid 20.