Help finding a balance staff

[toddho]

This is the first pocket watch that I have looked at that needs more than just cleaning.  A balance staff pivot is broken.  I cant find much info on the pocket watch:

Manuf: NOMOS

Caliber: ?

Size: 16

Nothing else is stamped on the movement other than the SN and "25".

I am not tooled up to do this surgery but I wanted to make sure I could find the part before I do.  Any ideas on where to look?  The "Watch Parts and Tool Suppliers" link eventually just brings me to the main watchFix.com main web page.

Thanks

toddho

 

[jdrichard]

I usually make them, check me out on YouTube 

[Repivot]

This was likely made before the Swiss made parts interchangeable, so finding a part is highly unlikely. Like JD says making it is the way to go. In some occasions repivotting is a cheaper option.

[toddho]

I'll do that JD.  I was already subscribed to your channel.  Good stuff.  By the way Repivot... I love your name!  I'm sure I'll be back asking more questions after I tool up to do this.

Thanks

toddho

[JohnR725]

 

On 12/8/2021 at 4:58 PM, Repivot said:

This was likely made before the Swiss made parts interchangeable, so finding a part is highly unlikely. Like JD says making it is the way to go.

Probably true but still worth taking the measurements and looking to see if anything is close. We do have listings of staffs by size is there might be something really really close. Then sometimes companies use the same staff for multiple generations sometimes. Then if none that works you might still find a staff that's really close that you just have to modify something versus making an entire new staff.

On 12/8/2021 at 4:58 PM, Repivot said:

In some occasions repivotting is a cheaper option.

How do curiosity why would re-pivoting to be a cheaper option occasionally? 

[Repivot]

JohnR725, since only one pivot is broken, the process of repivoting would take less time. If toddho is going to pay to have the job done, in this instance time is money.

Consider, when I make a staff, from the time I take the broken balance out to the time I put the balance with new staff back in will be about 3 hours of labor, assuming everything goes well. One pivot replaced takes me less than an hour of labor. I know one watchmaker, set up and well equipped, who does a lot of repivotting. He can bang out a balance pivot in 20 minutes. And he's so good you can't tell its not original.

[jdrichard]

23 minutes ago, Repivot said:

JohnR725, since only one pivot is broken, the process of repivoting would take less time. If toddho is going to pay to have the job done, in this instance time is money.

Consider, when I make a staff, from the time I take the broken balance out to the time I put the balance with new staff back in will be about 3 hours of labor, assuming everything goes well. One pivot replaced takes me less than an hour of labor. I know one watchmaker, set up and well equipped, who does a lot of repivotting. He can bang out a balance pivot in 20 minutes. And he's so good you can't tell its not original.

Who is this guy. I have never repivotted a balance staff and not sure how you can get it down to .09mm without stripping the balance off.

[JohnR725]

30 minutes ago, Repivot said:

since only one pivot is broken, the process of repivoting would take less time. If toddho is going to pay to have the job done, in this instance time is money.

Thanks for the clarification in other words sending it out to get it repivoting Should cost less than making a new staff.

The reason I wanted the clarification because the original answer to the question was

On 12/8/2021 at 4:36 PM, jdrichard said:

I usually make them, check me out on YouTube 

The problem with this answer is if you don't have the equipment to make a new staff it would be really expensive to buy all that equipment. Then if you bought all of this equipment it really wouldn't matter whether you're doing a pivot or the entire staff you still  spend a heck of a lot of money on equipment. Plus a course just the mere possession of equipment does not mean you have the expertise to use it so that require a heck of a lot time and learning curve just to Be able to a make a staff or replace a pivot. No matter how simple someone makes it look on YouTube.

[JohnR725]

11 minutes ago, jdrichard said:

Who is this guy. I have never repivotted a balance staff and not sure how you can get it down to .09mm without stripping the balance off.

When I was in school the instructor I had talked about another watchmaker who would Repivot Rather than replacing a staff I was able to do it supposedly faster than you and I could replace a staff. Probably on this discussion group somewhere I've seen pictures of people doing it. Although I would agree on a really tiny balance staff I don't think it's really practical to do there just isn't enough material to hold the new pivot.

One of the places where I know it's a very practical is things like a Marine chronometer. Because the pivots are nice and big and lend themselves to doing this googling here's a link that shows that

https://chronometerbook.com/2013/06/09/re-pivoting-a-balance-staff/

Also what makes it nice in this case is the balance wheel comes off with a couple of screws  So the balance wheel isn't in the way when the lathe work is being done.

Also for re-pivoting which I know we've talked about back she made dedicated little tools for doing that and I've seen were someone modified it for a carbide drills. Just have to figure out what it's called the search for on the group

[JohnR725]

At one time they made tools specific for re-pivoting like the video below. This one's been modified for carbide drills. Then of course you would still need a lathe to make the replacement pivot

https://youtu.be/FBZWZfbxeJw

Here is somebody doing it on the Lathe 

https://youtu.be/9p6yjtDA99E

 

 

 

[nickelsilver]

I'm with John, I only repivot something like a marine chronometer staff, or pinions. I can make a staff as fast or faster than I can repivot, and many of the staffs I make are for very small watches so it just isn't really practical.

[Repivot]

On 12/13/2021 at 5:30 PM, jdrichard said:

Who is this guy. I have never repivotted a balance staff and not sure how you can get it down to .09mm without stripping the balance off.

 

On 12/13/2021 at 5:40 PM, JohnR725 said:

 

The problem with this answer is if you don't have the equipment to make a new staff it would be really expensive to buy all that equipment. Then if you bought all of this equipment it really wouldn't matter whether you're doing a pivot or the entire staff you still  spend a heck of a lot of money on equipment. Plus a course just the mere possession of equipment does not mean you have the expertise to use it so that require a heck of a lot time and learning curve just to Be able to a make a staff or replace a pivot. No matter how simple someone makes it look on YouTube.

In response to your comments, I posted a new video on my YouTube channel about repivoting a balance.

JR, the diameter of the pivot I replace is .10mm. It wouldn't take much to reduce that down to .09mm. 

JohnR, your comment about the expense of the tooling is noted. So for the bulk of the video I use one of the simplest pivot tools one can obtain. Still there is the collect holding lathe which is a more substantial purchase, but one I would recommend to anyone serious about vintage watch repair. About YouTubers making things look simple, that's the result of years experience and some selective video editing.

If you watch the video on YouTube, what I omit in the video is included in the description below the video. 3 things I forgot to include.

Comments and critiques welcomed.