Smooth-sided canon pinion stuck on old pocket watch movement

[TimpanogosSlim]

Continuing my practice with worthless pocket watch movements, decided to look into a low-end swiss pocket watch movement i have from 10 years ago. 

There's no maker mark on the movement, just "14" stamped under the balance, what look like serial numbers elsewhere. Dial says "LOCUST". Decorated silver (or silvery) plated 7J movement.

Canon pinion is stuck. And it has a completely smooth, even polished shaft. 

I tried putting the butt of my brass tweezers over top of the protruding stem of the center wheel and pushing down with my thumb and it did not budge. 

Naturally, it's position is sunk into the main plate and there is only room to get one hand lever under it, and I am wary of bending things. 

I tried applying heat from the wand of my hot air soldering system, but i didn't go much over 200c. Didn't make a difference. It can go substantially hotter, if that helps. 

I did receive my first ever staking set today, a Little Giant, and it appears to have some roller table tools, but i don't know how to use any of that stuff yet. 

Any suggestions? Should i go ahead and hit it with a tiny hammer? 

 

[TimpanogosSlim]

Never mind. 

Yeah, I put the brass head on my harbor freight watchmaker's hammer, covered the end of the center wheel pivot with the butt of my brass tweezers, and gave it a little whack.

And then it was still stuck, but i could get some levers under it and it did come free. 

Some kind of schmutz on the center wheel pivot - dried whale oil? we'll never know. 

 

[JohnR725]

The problem of watch repair is there's lots of variations of stuff. Which is why we always ask for a picture. Then from your description it sounds like there was a small protruding part of the center wheel stuck up above the Canon pinion correct? It be nice to see a picture of the other side of the center wheel. Without that I get the guests we've covered this before somewhere it's not your normal center wheel. Okay it is her normal center wheel for that period of time. That is if I'm guessing correctly and the little a protruding part is a pin that goes through the hollow center wheel and comes out the other side. So the Canon pinion would not come off in the conventional way. But I'm entirely making a guess without pictures and could be wrong. But usually when you have a smooth sided Canon pinion it's usually much heavier than it's going on a center pin that goes through. So nice picture the backside would be nice now and the Canon pinion etc. just to verify it is what we think it is and help you proceed.

[TimpanogosSlim]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

The problem of watch repair is there's lots of variations of stuff. Which is why we always ask for a picture. Then from your description it sounds like there was a small protruding part of the center wheel stuck up above the Canon pinion correct? It be nice to see a picture of the other side of the center wheel. Without that I get the guests we've covered this before somewhere it's not your normal center wheel. Okay it is her normal center wheel for that period of time. That is if I'm guessing correctly and the little a protruding part is a pin that goes through the hollow center wheel and comes out the other side. So the Canon pinion would not come off in the conventional way. But I'm entirely making a guess without pictures and could be wrong. But usually when you have a smooth sided Canon pinion it's usually much heavier than it's going on a center pin that goes through. So nice picture the backside would be nice now and the Canon pinion etc. just to verify it is what we think it is and help you proceed.

Sorry, yes. Like a nail that goes through the center wheel. 

I did get it apart and cleaned. 

I will get pictures tomorrow. Based on the cut of the plates and the style of decoration, comparing it to Dr. Ranfft's database, i think it's a relative of the Cortebert 488. 

I'll post pictures tomorrow. I spent a couple hours getting the train bridge back on. The design is pessimized, with a convex pimple for each wheel's pivot, so that they naturally want to be anywhere but in their bearing. There's lots of wear on those surfaces from the frustration of previous watchmakers. This one i acquired as a whole watch, and there are several service marks on the inside of the case, dating back to the 1930's i think. 

The barrel arbor in really bad shape. I mean when i started the corners of the squared end for the ratchet wheel were chewed off pretty bad and the threads were damaged, but i managed to break a screw off in it too. 

[TimpanogosSlim]

I believe I'm not the first person to break off a screw in that barrel arbor, and that's why the threads are off-center and were in such poor condition. 

If i can find the arbor alone i might roll the dice. If i see a movement for cheap i might roll the dice. This watch isn't nice enough to spend more than about another $20 on. 

For damn sure I'm never taking that train bridge off again. I feel bad for all the watchmakers who have serviced this one before me. 

There's one identical down to everything but the dial (and the content but not format of the engraving) on ebay but they want 10x what I'd pay for it. I'll note that nothing on the case claims that there is any gold in or on it. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/184983917595

Cortebert 488 -- the keyless works on the locust are different but the plates and balance cock are identical - http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&2&2uswk&Cortebert_488

Edited December 10, 2021 by TimpanogosSlim

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, TimpanogosSlim said:

I believe I'm not the first person to break off a screw in that barrel arbor, and that's why the threads are off-center and were in such poor condition. 

Somewhere on this group this subject has come up before imagine that. Part of the reason is a guess it's off-center is this is not a super high grade watch in its old enough that manufacturing wasn't super precise. Go and then the other screwed the other wheel that's probably a left-handed screws so be careful with that. See which way it wants to turn and try not to break The head off but that one would be easier to deal with.

Oh minor little thing I'm attaching a picture you still have to remove something? Notice it looks like a tube with something stuck in it? Normally it is a little more head on that side. In the old days it this square for the setting mechanism in other words you turned the square to set the hands. Later on it looked more like kind of the head of a nail and it was it was a little bit of something there as opposed to this which is nothing there. So it's something really fine on the other side you should village gently tap and push it out on this side.

So classically when you really heavy cannon pinions  and usually a protruding Pin plus on the other side as I said to be a little bit sticking out then you just On the dial side protruding part and the whole thing should just fallout. But as you pointed out the watches been worked on. That's the problem with vintage watches the more they get worked on the more issues can pop up. Which is why unfortunately vintage cheap watches off of eBay other than the play with conceivably will never run again because they just aren't there will be too many issues. Yes they probably could be restored but they were it outstanding in the first place and did require a heck of a lot of work. But still wonderful for playing with learning on.

[TimpanogosSlim]

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Somewhere on this group this subject has come up before imagine that. Part of the reason is a guess it's off-center is this is not a super high grade watch in its old enough that manufacturing wasn't super precise.

If you look close you can see the remnants of another screw off to one side. Just a little sliver moon. 

Before the internet, if you were just some random watchmaker, how would you know that this is probably a cortebert ebauche implemented as cheaply as possible but with a little decoration? 

The wind and set are both on the stem with a somewhat conventional modern keyless works with the odd convenience feature that the end of the clutch lever and its spring are both captive under a little bridge formed by incomplete machining of the main plate. The spring not only won't launch, it takes a little effort to remove. 

And then there's satan's own inspired train bridge.