Auto movement ID, and help with cannon pinion.

[BillM]

Hi, Novice watch repair person here,

I have this automatic movement that came in a fake/ replica watch.

I took the watch apart just enough to remove the fake name form the dial and movement (It was painted on and came off with alcohol).  

Sense I put it back together the hands don't always move around the dial, as if they are slipping, but they are tight on the minuet wheel and cannon pinion. (Seconds hand ticks nicely).

The hands move around the dial very easily when in set position, like way to easy, so I think the cannon pinion needs to be tightened.

The movement looks pretty good on my timegrapher too.

I've never worked on an automatic movement before and am a bit intimidated with all the parts and was hoping someone would know what the movement is and maybe point me to some kind of drawing showing the parts and pieces.

Thanks for any help with this,

Bill

[Klassiker]

I can't help you with the i.d. as I cannot see any markings, but I agree with your fault diagnosis.

[jdm]

38 minutes ago, BillM said:

was hoping someone would know what the movement is and maybe point me to some kind of drawing showing the parts and pieces.

That is a cheap Chinese mov.t with the automatic works copied from Seiko. No parts (except the stem), drawings or any other technical information is available for these. In addition, they are also very fragile and easy to break when worked on, especially by beginners, so be advised. 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, jdm said:

That is a cheap Chinese mov.t with the automatic works copied from Seiko. No parts (except the stem), drawings or any other technical information is available for these. In addition, they are also very fragile and easy to break when worked on, especially by beginners, so be advised. 

I agree it definitely looks Chinese. The Chinese haven't quite ever got around to making spec sheets technical drawings replacement parts or anything else for Their watches. This means lots and lots of photographs and if you need a spare parts are going to have to buy another movement.

Then because is not a very good copy of a Seiko we can't even give you a recommendation of a Seiko tech sheet to get you started.

You might check out the channel at the link below he might have actually done a watch closer to what you have. The area has a inexpensive Chinese that I think actually looks nicer than yours perhaps. But he does show disassembling an automatic watch

https://youtu.be/L_Efar7Dlyw

 

 

[HectorLooi]

I noticed that your dial spacer is missing in the picture. 

Could you remove the hour wheel and get a close up photo of the cannon pinion? 

If the cannon pinion is a conventional type, you can try tightening it yourself. All you need is a pair of old nail clippers.

[jdm]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

The Chinese haven't quite ever got around to making spec sheets technical drawings replacement parts or anything else for Their watches.

Seagull has something like casing information, but the level is decades behind Japanese and Swiss.

 

54 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

If the cannon pinion is a conventional type, you can try tightening it yourself. All you need is a pair of old nail clippers.

Worth to remind that this is to be done with the CP removed. If done in situ it will be enlarged rather than closed.

[BillM]

It figures that its a cheap Chinese movement, thanks.  
I’ll get a good photo of the cannon pinion after work today, but I’m pretty sure it’s a conventional type.  
I made a cannon pinion tool awhile back, and it works ok, that hard part is finding a rod to fit inside the cannon pinion so I don’t crush it to much. ( I spent days crushing and expanding the last one I tried, but I did finely get it).  

[BillM]

Here's a photo of the cannon pinion.

Also are two photos of some parts that "flew out" of the movement and I'm not sure how they go back, which is why I was asking for a diagram of some kind.

(Tweezer tips are pointing at the parts), Both parts look like their part of the calendar rotation system, but I didn't get to see where they came from so I just put them where I think they go in the photos.

Thanks,

Bill 

Edited January 28, 2022 by BillM

[LittleWatchShop]

Something like one of these I believe

[LittleWatchShop]

Here is the concept with a better drawing.

[LittleWatchShop]

My technique is to partially screw on the cover plate with the spring and date jumper engaged with the spring but sitting under the calendar ring.  There is usually a place where you can nudge the jumper out from under the calendar ring while pressing down on the plate with a piece of pegwood.  It all depends on what you can see below the plate.

[anilv]

On this watch, It looks like you can get the spring in thru the cut-out in the cover plate.

WRT to the cannon pinion, when tightening, do not use any pliers on the tube as it is too easy to crush the cannon pinion. Try to support the pinion so that its lying down but a bit off the work surface so there is clearance for the gear. Use a punch or even a screw driver to punch the side. If you have a metal rod that is slightly undersized, put it inside the cannon pinion to give some support.

Be aware that fitting a cannon with the minute wheel installed is a good way to break a teeth off the cannon pinion gear. while it is possible with care, it is much better to remove the minute wheel.

Anilv

Edited January 28, 2022 by anilv

[BillM]

Thank you for the information guys, I thought that was where that click stop went. I can tell it’s going to be pain to get back together.  

I made this tool awhile back and have used it once, it was scary and took me quite a few goes to get it to work, but it did work.  
would you still suggest using a anvil and screwdriver blade type tool on the CP?

how you decide what size rod to put inside the CP, trial and error?

 

thanks again for the help.  
 

Bill
 

 

[KarlvonKoln]

22 hours ago, jdm said:

That is a cheap Chinese mov.t with the automatic works copied from Seiko. No parts (except the stem), drawings or any other technical information is available for these. In addition, they are also very fragile and easy to break when worked on, especially by beginners, so be advised. 

JDM is right, and has said it better than I can.  I have had to work on those, and I don't like to do so, because as JDM stated there are no specs available to guide me, one cannot easily get replacement parts for these, and the parts break so easily that it takes the enjoyment out of watch repair.
I try to help my customers however I can, but I have had some awkward moments where I had to explain that a watch they thought was genuine was instead a fake, and that the movement would give headaches.
I know a good bit about these, but I do not think they have a brand name.  And that may be for the best.  If we had a name to reference, some of us frustrated watchmakers might go hunting down the company's founder to express our displeasure in angry terms.

Edited January 28, 2022 by KarlvonKoln

[BillM]

Thank you both for the warnings, I’ll not keep my hopes up with this one. 
If I can fix this thing I promise not to let it get out into public hands, one less crap movement to let down someone’s happiness with watches.  
 

[HectorLooi]

4 hours ago, BillM said:

Thank you for the information guys, I thought that was where that click stop went. I can tell it’s going to be pain to get back together.  

I made this tool awhile back and have used it once, it was scary and took me quite a few goes to get it to work, but it did work.  
would you still suggest using a anvil and screwdriver blade type tool on the CP?

how you decide what size rod to put inside the CP, trial and error?

 

thanks again for the help.  
 

Bill
 

I use a tapered smooth reamer and push it from the bottom as far as it would go and nibble on the tube. Then put the CP back on and test it. If it's still loose, I'll back off the smooth reamer and repeat.

But recently I made a CP tightener from an old nail clipper. Now I can use the screw to control the distance of the jaws to avoid crushing the CP tube. You can do the same with your design.

[BillM]

I really like the use of the nail clipper, much lighter, more control I bet.  
I’ll have to make one like that.  
 

great idea on the tapered reamer, not sure I have one the right size, might have to buy one.  
 

thanks again everyone, I’ll post my results when I’m done. ( might be a few days as I have some other things I need to finish first). 

[BillM]

I made a cannon pinion tightener like yours and it worked fantastic. 
I got my watch back together and it looks like the problem is solved. 
I was also able to  get that spring set thru the cut-out in the cover plate. 
Thanks for the help guys, much appreciated!  
Bill. 

Edited February 7, 2022 by BillM