Replaced balance complete--SLOW!!!

[LittleWatchShop]

This is an Elgin pocket watch Grade 384.  I posted about making a staff and breaking the roller table.

I got a balance complete and installed it today.

It was running slow.  I thought maybe there was a hairspring length problem, so I exchanged with the original hairspring.  SLOW.

Amplitude is good.

Now I am wondering about the actual balance wheel.  See the pictures.

I am wondering about extra weight due to the extra screws.  This balance wheel is designed to compensate for temperature and the screws are part of that calibration process--I know that much.

Should I shorten the hairpsring?  Remove screws?

[jdrichard]

2 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

This is an Elgin pocket watch Grade 384.  I posted about making a staff and breaking the roller table.

I got a balance complete and installed it today.

It was running slow.  I thought maybe there was a hairspring length problem, so I exchanged with the original hairspring.  SLOW.

Amplitude is good.

Now I am wondering about the actual balance wheel.  See the pictures.

I am wondering about extra weight due to the extra screws.  This balance wheel is designed to compensate for temperature and the screws are part of that calibration process--I know that much.

Should I shorten the hairpsring?  Remove screws?

If it runs slow. Depends how slow it runs. I would remove weight from the mean-time screws. But make sure it is not something else, like the regulator pins being too far apart. That would cause it to run slow. Or perhaps the hairspring is outside the regulator pins. Does it have a good amplitude?

[Nucejoe]

3 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Should I shorten the hairpsring?  

Isn't it an overcoil? 

How slow?

 

[LittleWatchShop]

57 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Isn't it an overcoil?

Yes.

 

2 hours ago, jdrichard said:

If it runs slow. Depends how slow it runs. I would remove weight from the mean-time screws. But make sure it is not something else, like the regulator pins being too far apart. That would cause it to run slow. Or perhaps the hairspring is outside the regulator pins. Does it have a good amplitude?

It has good amplitude.

While I think there is still some issue with the balance, it is secondary to another issue.  It seems that there is binding in the keyless works which is giving resistance to the center wheel via the cannon pinion.  This evening I discovered that that the minute hand even STOPPED while the balance was ticking away.

More investigation is required...but I am going to turn in.  Those who fight and run away live to fight another day.

It is a most interesting problem...I will keep you updated as it unfolds.

[Nucejoe]

 

8 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Should I shorten the hairpsring?  Remove screws?

With overcoils, removing weight from screws is THE option. 

 

8 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Amplitude is good.

Now I am wondering about the actual balance wheel.  See the pictures.

Good amplitude sends me to look for  cause of the issue  outside main train,  I think you have found where the issue is located,  I would eliminate the minute train and see what happens. 

I haven't received a picutre.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

With overcoils, removing weight from screws is THE option. 

This is definitely correct. Over coil hairsprings are premade. Premade so that they can be in very exacting specifications. Changing the length with a screw up the specifications and is not acceptable unless you're super desperate and it's still not acceptable. The preferred method is to play with the screws that's why they're there.

And yes there it exacting specifications so it's best not the play with them too much and if you are playing with them try to do it close to the alarm if you are worried about the temperature because the closer you are to an arm the less likely it is to bother anything. Usually today nobody worries or cares about that.

7 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

This evening I discovered that that the minute hand even STOPPED while the balance was ticking away.

Usually best to verify your watch is working before you case it up and put the hands on.

Then out of curiosity just how slow are we talking anyway? Plus I seem to be having eyesight problems I can't see the pictures?

 

[LittleWatchShop]

I took the picture but failed to attache it.  Here it is.  The balance to the right is the old balance.

I have since removed the two screws at the spokes in order not to affect temperature compensation.  I figured that much out.

Yes it is an overcoil, and I see that the length should not be fiddled with.  In fact one of the studs has no feature for adjusting.

[LittleWatchShop]

OK, more pictures and an interesting discovery.

On the theory that there is some binding on the dial side (aka motion works), I took a look at the plate that covers the minute wheel.  It is not planer (shown in the image clamped to a razor blade).  Perhaps that is a problem.  Still does not resolve the terrible time signature on the time grapher.  I will provide some additional detail on a subsequent post.

[Nucejoe]

9 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

  Still does not resolve the terrible time signature on the time grapher. 

Is there any problem other than runing slow?   helps to know   how slow  ? 

I make sure the fault isn't anywhere else,  before I touch a balance of this grade.  think you are rushing.

Regards

 

[LittleWatchShop]

56 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Is there any problem other than runing slow?   helps to know   how slow  ? 

I make sure the fault isn't anywhere else,  before I touch a balance of this grade.  think you are rushing.

Regards

 

No, the staff was broken.  I attempted to make a staff and failed...broke the roller table (staff was 40um to large in diameter).  All of this was covered in a different post.  Bought a new balance complete on ebay.  That is what is installed on the balance cock. 

How slow?  The timegrapher indicated hundreds of seconds per day.  But, the signature was somewhat unbelievable.  Then I noticed that within a day, I lost an hour or more.  BUT!!!  At the end of the day yesterday I discovered that the keyless works work impeding the cannon pinion.  That is what caused me to investigate the minute wheel cover plate.

Am I going too fast and in the wrong order?  Perhaps.  Perhaps not.  Here is a timeline of this watch which has been going on for a week and a half.

Opened the watch to discover broken balance.
Proceeded with disassembly and clean anyway.
After clean, I disassembled the balance.
Found a staff that was close and turned it to fit (almost!! grrrr)
Installed the staff on the balance wheel.
Put the balance wheel in the watch without hairspring or roller table and guard.
Tested for end shake and side shake--seemed fine.
Installed the safety roller and roller jewel--busted the roller jewel because I failed to turn the staff down enough.
Found a new balance complete on ebay
Installed it when it arrived.
Good amplitude but erratic timegrapher behavior
Put the watch on my oscilloscope to view the trace.  A little noisy, but a reasonable (IMO) signature.
Appeared to be a little out of beat.  I adjusted the collet and got it closer in beat (though this was a minor issue)
Back on the bench, install hands
Discovered losing on the order of an hour during the day
<<<<at this point I should have spent some time in reflection>>>>
Removed the hairspring and installed the original hairspring.
No real difference.
Removed two screws from the balance.
THEN I DISCOVERED THAT THE KEYLESS WORKS MIGHT BE THE PROBLEM
Investigated the minute wheel and cover...non planar
It is running on the bench now without the minute-wheel cover plate
 

[LittleWatchShop]

Here a timegrapher plot--snow storm

And...an oscilloscope trace.  I set the cursors to indicate 5Hz as a reference.

Yes, it seems to be going fast now...but that is after removing the two screws and some regulator adjustment.

[Nucejoe]

 I think you will be putting the screws and the spring that came on the new balance complete back on, as you have found the fault and its the minute gear bridge.

As always American watches show bad temper specially in area of banking pins, pallets so on.

I'll be reading JohnR advice and  trying to learn as you fix this one. 

Good luck

 

 

 

[LittleWatchShop]

8 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

 I think you will be putting the screws and the spring that came on the new balance complete back on, as you have found the fault and its the minute gear bridge.

As always American watches show bad temper specially in area of banking pins, pallets so on.

I'll be reading JohnR advice and  trying to learn as you fix this one. 

Good luck

 

 

 

I put the screws back on.  Gonna wait on the spring.  Every time you take it apart, there is additional risk.  The screws were easy because I have the right tools!!  Yay.

[JohnR725]

I decided not to read anything below the pictures because we have a problem?

As a reminder this is an American pocket watch and there's a problem? When the movement is out of the case there is no stem. Why is that a problem the stem is found in the case the position of the stem is controlled by the sleeve in the case. When an American pocket watch comes out of the case it goes into setting. Like my picture isn't that wheel in the setting position? As everybody should grasp if you run a watch while in setting your driving the entire setting mechanism and simplistically that is bad.

American watch companies grasping that their movements might have to run out of the case usually have a procedure to put it into the winding position or running position. I can't see enough of the movement to see what I need to see. Sometimes they'll be a screw that you turn other times they'll be a little lever like thing that's near where the stem would go in that you pull out. To basically look at how the setting components work and there should be something in there to allow it to go back in the winding position. That hopefully will improve things

then if you ever seen any of my windings and fussing is about hairsprings now you know why hairsprings are typically vibrated to each balance wheel. But if you have an over a coil of the over coil has to be made very exacting position. So what they do is they match the balance wheel to the hairspring. The factory had all the different timing screws and then they also undercut the balance screws themselves to bring each one into the right timing to match the hairspring. This is why mixing and matching hairsprings will result in dramatic timing issues. So I would put the original hairspring back on the balance wheel and try to deal with the hot otherwise you're going to have to be playing with the screws quite a bit and you may still have to do it if somebody did a mix-and-match of not grasping that one hairspring is not identical to another.

 

 

[LittleWatchShop]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

I decided not to read anything below the pictures because we have a problem?

As a reminder this is an American pocket watch and there's a problem? When the movement is out of the case there is no stem. Why is that a problem the stem is found in the case the position of the stem is controlled by the sleeve in the case. When an American pocket watch comes out of the case it goes into setting. Like my picture isn't that wheel in the setting position? As everybody should grasp if you run a watch while in setting your driving the entire setting mechanism and simplistically that is bad.

American watch companies grasping that their movements might have to run out of the case usually have a procedure to put it into the winding position or running position. I can't see enough of the movement to see what I need to see. Sometimes they'll be a screw that you turn other times they'll be a little lever like thing that's near where the stem would go in that you pull out. To basically look at how the setting components work and there should be something in there to allow it to go back in the winding position. That hopefully will improve things

then if you ever seen any of my windings and fussing is about hairsprings now you know why hairsprings are typically vibrated to each balance wheel. But if you have an over a coil of the over coil has to be made very exacting position. So what they do is they match the balance wheel to the hairspring. The factory had all the different timing screws and then they also undercut the balance screws themselves to bring each one into the right timing to match the hairspring. This is why mixing and matching hairsprings will result in dramatic timing issues. So I would put the original hairspring back on the balance wheel and try to deal with the hot otherwise you're going to have to be playing with the screws quite a bit and you may still have to do it if somebody did a mix-and-match of not grasping that one hairspring is not identical to another.

 

 

Good points of course.  What was not fully conveyed was that, literally, the cannon pinion would lock hard and the hand would not move.  I posted about the non-planarity of the minute wheel cover.  I have since investigated further.  Running your finger on the bottom of the plate I could also feel a burr.  Anyway, using an extra fine diamond plate, I smoothed the bottom and established a planar surface and thus removed the burr.

In terms of running in setting position, frankly I missed that.  Will remedy and report back.

As far is the uniqueness of every watch that goes out of the factory w/r to balance and hairspring--I get it.  To do it right, I should remove the staff, roller, and hairspring and put it on the other balance wheel--a matched set.  Gonna try to avoid that if possible (if I were a couple of years down the road, perhaps I would not hesitate).

I will report back.

[nickelsilver]

10 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

 To do it right, I should remove the staff, roller, and hairspring and put it on the other balance wheel--a matched set.  Gonna try to avoid that if possible (if I were a couple of years down the road, perhaps I would not hesitate).

I will report back.

It's simpler than that. The hairspring is matched to the balance assembly, which is comprised of the balance, staff and roller. For all intents and purposes the roller and staff are interchangeable; if you replace a staff (carefully) there is rarely any need to even touch the poise, much less the general rate, same with roller.

 

But the inertia of one balance compared to another, even seemingly identical, can vary wildly, so springs and balances become a set.

 

Also, you would never remove and reinstall a staff, as it would just be a mess.

[LittleWatchShop]

Don't think I am being evasive...I am still working this problem...just stay tuned!!

I am multi-tasking...working on watches, clocks, mechanical, quartz...working on my brain plasticity!!

[LittleWatchShop]

Update!!

I removed the two screws at the spokes and the watch ran too fast.  I replaced those spots with smaller screws.

It has kept good time over the last 24 hours and the regulator is about 30 degrees off center, so not too bad.

Progress

[jdrichard]

On 3/2/2022 at 9:37 AM, LittleWatchShop said:

OK, more pictures and an interesting discovery.

On the theory that there is some binding on the dial side (aka motion works), I took a look at the plate that covers the minute wheel.  It is not planer (shown in the image clamped to a razor blade).  Perhaps that is a problem.  Still does not resolve the terrible time signature on the time grapher.  I will provide some additional detail on a subsequent post.

You need to have a dial washer to ouch down the hour wheel so it engages when th the Minute wheel when the face is on and the watch is Not face up. Gravity not your friend.

[LittleWatchShop]

Well, the saga continues...trying to dial this thing in like a RR watch!  It is an opportunity to learn new things.

This morning I added some timing washers.  Trying to get the regulator mid scale when timed. 

Happily, me pappy left me this nice assortment of timing washers...calibrated in minutes/day.

[LittleWatchShop]

UPDATE: After swapping in successively smaller timing washers, I have this watch keeping great time with the regulator at mid scale!  Waiting on a sub second hand to arrive then I will finish this and deliver it to the owner.

[LittleWatchShop]

Delivered the watch to the owner today.  She was very happy.  Gave me some beef jerky.  I work for food or wine...or Jameson.

[mbwatch]

This is an older one but I'm just stopping by to say I learned a bunch from this interesting thread. I came here to see if pulling out timing screws on a wristwatch movement might get me closer to timekeeping without pushing the regulator to its +limit. I knew the balance wheel and hairspring were matched, but what I had was one with a good staff & hairspring twisted badly right at the collet, and another with a good hairspring and broken staff.

 

It's quite a cheap 7j watch and it's for me to keep so I thought I'd try swapping them since I don't know how to fix a hairspring twisted where I can't even grip it.

But the main thing I got here is the info about American pocket watches driving the setting mechanism when uncased. This might explain why I've had a few where acceptable regulation goes awry once I cased it.