Installed New Complete Balance But Spring is "Bunched" to one side

[SAK335]

Hi all, I have this Cattin C66 movement that came in a Douglas/Woolbrook dive watch.  The case and dial are in really nice shape but the movement wasn't running.  I did a service on the movement and it was clear right away that both pivots on the balance staff were broken.  Looking for parts, it seemed a lot easier to just buy a new balance complete than to order a staff (I don't have a staking set), so that's what I did.  

Replacing it was a little tricky, because the stud was peened onto the balance cock, but I just used a fine file to file down the peened area of the stud enough to get it out.  After installing the new balance, I put it in the watch and it sprung to life, but amplitude is poor and it stops running randomly.  Looking closely reveals that the new hairspring is "bunched" to one side and not oscillating as well as it should.  If I removed the spring from the balance cock thinking perhaps that I did something wrong, but it shows that the spring is in perfect condition, so this is obviously something that I'm doing when I install the spring into the balance cock?  The regulator pin (I think that's what it's called) on this watch is just an 'L' shaped piece of wire rather than the kind that has two fingers, one of which is turned like a screw to hold the spring in place.  

It appears that when I install the outermost loop of the spring onto this pin, it pulls the rest of the coils with it, causing the problem.  I don't, however, know how to rectify this problem.

Here's a couple photos of what I'm dealing with: 1. The new balance complete; 2. the new balance installed in the watch.

 

[nickelsilver]

If you make a bend at the blue arrow it should correct it quite a bit. Bend so you are moving that coil away from the stud (the rest follows). If that's too frightening, you can simply push the spring next to the stud, in the direction you want it to go. Ideally you would form something of a double bend at the blue arrow, and then check that the spring is centered in the regulating pins, correct if necessary (at the stud), then recorrect the double bend to get it truly centered. But I'm guessing this is your first hairspring work, best to keep it simple.

 

 

[HectorLooi]

I think it looks like a brand new hairspring and the terminal curve has not been formed.

If this is your first time working on a hairspring, it can be quite daunting.

Do you still have the old hairspring? It might be possible to transfer it over to the new balance. 

[SAK335]

Thanks for the quick replies.

"Do you still have the old hairspring?"

Yes, but the spring was damaged.  Probably from flopping around inside the case after the staff broke, I'm assuming. It could probably be saved by somebody that knows what they are doing.  I decided that when I get more comfortable with this kind of work that I'd use it for practice.

"If this is your first time working on a hairspring, it can be quite daunting."

It's not my first time.  Unfortunately, the first time didn't go so well

"Ideally you would form something of a double bend at the blue arrow"

OK, I think I know what you mean; here's a beautiful drawing I did which is how I understand the task at hand:

 

[nickelsilver]

Yes the drawing is right. But a simpler bend might get it close enough- it's not a chronometer!

[mikepilk]

Do you have a picture of the old hairspring ?

[SAK335]

Here is a photo of the original balance.  As you can see, the spring got damaged somehow and is bent on two axes in the middle.

[praezis]

14 hours ago, SAK335 said:

Here is a photo of the original balance.  As you can see, the spring got damaged somehow and is bent on two axes in the middle.

This would be an easy fix if you knew how to do it.

Frank

[jdm]

1 minute ago, praezis said:

This would be an easy fix if you knew how to do it.

There are a few good hairspring manipulation videos out there, but more would be better. What about the Masters on this forum making a typical damage, and then showing how's fixed.

[praezis]

53 minutes ago, jdm said:

There are a few good hairspring manipulation videos out there, but more would be better. What about the Masters on this forum making a typical damage, and then showing how's fixed.

Videos are nice, I am used to the unplugged version: looking up a textbook

There are just two basic rules (had already postet this before):

- coil gap too wide or too narrow: bend 90 degrees from the max/min gap

 

- coil out of flat: bend opposite (180 deg.) to the max. height:

These rules help finding the right spot for bending, avoid wild guessing.
But it still needs practice, if video or textbook.

Frank

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by praezis

[Nucejoe]

 

Terrminal curve and nice bend is usually easier to shape when hairspring is taken off the balance. 

As you acquire more experience and dexetrity, you can do just as good of a shaping with oscilator in place in the movement.

[jdm]

2 hours ago, praezis said:

Videos are nice, I am used to the unplugged version: looking up a textbook 

Which book is this? Going by the illustrations only, various questions remains, as .. on the horizontal plane that is done with tweezers, needles, or both? All we can see is black dots.

Bending vertical plane, close tweezers are depicted, one has an arrows as in meaning that repeatedly moved, then reapplied?  I found that trying to grab and push (or pull) in the vertical plane is almost impossible , because with enough grabbing force, you are already deforming the hairsping, and also not holding it precisely. In fact I do correct that in a way what I'm at loss to explain in words, but involves some twisting over a longish distance.

I restate my opinion: in 2022 what make a difference in learning are videos, as is a clear, commented ones of a Master explaining first what is going to do, and then show how. An applause to who will take this effort.

 

[jdm]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Terrminal curve and nice bend is usually easier to shape when hairspring is taken off the balance.

These that you are talking about are more corrections to slight imperfections, not repairing an hairspring which has severe bends, which must necessarily done with the HS removed. 

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

As you acquire more experience and dexetrity, you can do just as good of a shaping with oscilator in place in the movement.

That is, the minor fixes above, nothing more than that.

[mikepilk]

51 minutes ago, jdm said:

  I found that trying to grab and push (or pull) in the vertical plane is almost impossible , because with enough grabbing force, you are already deforming the hairsping, and also not holding it precisely.

Me too!  I'm fairly competent at tweaking in the flat, but making those vertical bends arghh  

[HectorLooi]

Watching videos is a great way to learn. Mark has an excellent video on hairspring tweaking. 

But watching a video and actually performing the procedure are totally different things. I watched Mark's video several times but when it came to actually tweaking my first hairspring, I ended up breaking it.

I gained some proficiency at hairspring tweaking from working on clock hairsprings. Clock hairsprings are much bigger and tougher. It will give a beginner a much easier time, while developing the skills and dexterity needed and build up confidence.

A box of assorted clock hairsprings is available from Cousins. In it you'll find hairsprings as thick as watch mainsprings and fine ones like those in pocketwatches.

[jdm]

47 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

Mark has an excellent video on hairspring tweaking. 

I find Mark's video great to see how, in the end, he repairs a mainspring. Lititz's is less useful, just a small adjustment (according to the title) on a running watch. I understand that describing something that is more an art than technique can be difficult, but there must be a way, even top surgeons write long and incredibly detailed papers about the smallest detail on their work.
The call to "practice, practice, practice" becomes a bit worn out and empty if not supported by a good old "I'll show you how exactly first".

[praezis]

2 hours ago, jdm said:

Which book is this? Going by the illustrations only, various questions remains, as .. on the horizontal plane that is done with tweezers, needles, or both? All we can see is black dots.

Book is a Jendritzki (German, but there are many good books in English, too, I am sure).
"Black dots" are tweezers (cross section), a pin and a tweezers are also ok.

In the vertical plane, one tweezers is twisted (arrow means backwards here) , which twists the spring blade. Hard to show with a 2D sketch.

Frank

[SAK335]

OK, thanks to all the suggestions.  I had watched several videos a while back (working on a different watch) regarding hairspring manipulation, but my results haven't been good.  I always remove the balance from the cock, and once even removed the spring from the balance.  None of them went well and I need more practice.

For this particular watch, I was able to get the spring in the right position and it's running nicely.  

Now I just need a crown and a crystal that fits better (the calendar cyclops isn't lined up on this Sternkreuz I bought.)  I'm working on the bezel now (cracked) and hope to have this done by the end of the week.

Next patient is a Gruen 415 with the same issue.

[jdm]

6 minutes ago, SAK335 said:

Now I just need a crown and a crystal that fits better (the calendar cyclops isn't lined up on this Sternkreuz I bought.) 

The cyclops is just glued, there are (guess what) various videos on how to remove it.

[SAK335]

5 minutes ago, jdm said:

The cyclops is just glued, there are (guess what) various videos on how to remove it.

On the original and this new one, the cyclops is actually cut into the underside of the crystal.  The Rolex ones are glued on for sure.  This watch originally had a cyclops which is why I wanted one on there (originality) but if it's not going to line up I'll just do without.