Quality Chinese Tools

[HectorLooi]

5 hours ago, mbwatch said:

I wonder if there's a knock off set of dies at the customary one-sixth-bergeon price point to use with the Chinese press in question.

I haven't seen any so far. But the smallest size die works just fine to compress the centre of the crystal.

I think it would be quite easy to make your own dome dies. Just embed a correct size nut into a piece of wood or plastic and turn it down in a lathe.

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 hours ago, mbwatch said:

Question about these screw-type crystal presses: Can they be used with acrylic crystals in the way that an old Robur style press works by bending the crystal down over a felted lower die and then bringing the case up to meet the compressed crystal? The old Robur dies appear to have been more smoothly concave than these.

I don't mind removing acrylic crystals with a crystal lift, but inserting new ones can be frustrating when the case falls between available crystal diameters and I go for the larger diameter.

(It seems clear these presses will work great on mineral & sapphire crystals)

A couple of things here mb. Cousins do actually sell the robur for a reasonable price, but the dies are a separate buy.  And secondly have you ever thought about reducing the diameter of a crystal. They average out at .8mm , to lose .1mm from its edge thickness leaves plenty and  would give you a .2mm reduction in diameter.  As long as you retain the bevel edge. I thought about this a while ago, of using a suction cup with the addition of a center spindle  to  grap the crystal and spin it through wet and dry. So i bought some 20mm suction cups and they do hold onto the crystal face very well. In fact one was still stuck fast the following day. 

47 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

I haven't seen any so far. But the smallest size die works just fine to compress the centre of the crystal.

I think it would be quite easy to make your own dome dies. Just embed a correct size nut into a piece of wood or plastic and turn it down in a lathe.

I think our brains are connected HectorLooi . Although you would need a wood turning lathe and turning chisels. I just so happen to have started dusting mine down yesterday

Edited September 17, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[VWatchie]

On 7/29/2022 at 12:31 AM, MechanicMike said:

question: for measuring pivots, jeweled gauge plate or bench micrometer?

I remember @nickelsilver mentioning that the risk of denting very small pivots (<= 0.12mm, if I remember correctly) is imminent with a micrometre, so I always use my Seitz jewel gauge.

[mbwatch]

13 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Although you would need a wood turning lathe and turning chisels. I just so happen to have started dusting mine down yesterday

I was thinking about a hi-res 3D print in nylon, sanded smooth. But it would need good structure behind it to be as rigid as the machined acrylic dies.

13 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Cousins do actually sell the robur for a reasonable price, but the dies are a separate buy

This is news to me, I didn't know they were still made (Cousins isn't my first stop since I'm in the US) - and I've never seen a newer one for sale. But a press and the 2 or 3 dies I'm likely to use would be a reasonable purchase.

 

13 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

secondly have you ever thought about reducing the diameter of a crystal.

Yes, but my bench is still in its infancy; I don't have any power tools beyond a Dremel.

[Neverenoughwatches]

37 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

This is news to me, I didn't know they were still made.

Neither did I, i chanced by them while looking for something else. Expensive though 150 for the press 300 for a die set.

37 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

Yes, but my bench is still in its infancy; I don't have any power tools beyond a dremel

Ah-ha the perfect tool for what i have in mind. Experiment Sunday  in Hull, Neverenoughwatches style. . And baking with my crazy 28 year old daughter. Its going to be a fun day ☺ 

5 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I remember @nickelsilver mentioning that the risk of denting very small pivots (<= 0.12mm, if I remember correctly) is imminent with a micrometre, so I always use my Seitz jewel gauge.

You do remember correctly Watchie, i remember the same mentioning. I also remember being disappointed because i had just aquired a lovely Bergeon bench micrometer and was then informed i needed a jewelled pivot gauge

Edited September 18, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[mbwatch]

20 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

But the smallest size die works just fine to compress the centre of the crystal.

Are you suggesting that it is possible to use the supplied set of dies on the Chinese press with the smallest installed on the bottom to compress acrylic crystals?

[Charette]

21 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I think our brains are connected HectorLooi . Although you would need a wood turning lathe and turning chisels. I just so happen to have started dusting mine down yesterday

21 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

I haven't seen any so far. But the smallest size die works just fine to compress the centre of the crystal.

I think it would be quite easy to make your own dome dies. Just embed a correct size nut into a piece of wood or plastic and turn it down in a lathe.

I actually did this a few days ago to put my 1st acrylic dome in. I have one of the cheap lever style chinese presses. I sanded down some scrap wood, put an M6 nut into the back and just used some super glue to hold it in. I put a small piece of foam over the dome when pushing on the crystal.

Without the foam, I broke a crystal, but I chalked that up to also being too large and being the 1st time I have tried this, was using way too much pressure to make the larger size fit. The smaller size down is the one that ended up fitting.

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by Charette

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, Charette said:

I actually did this a few days ago to put my 1st acrylic dome in. I have one of the cheap lever style chinese presses. I sanded down some scrap wood, put an M6 nut into the back and just used some super glue to hold it in. I put a small piece of foam over the dome when pushing on the crystal.

Without the foam, I broke a crystal, but I chalked that up to also being too large and being the 1st time I have tried this, was using way too much pressure to make the larger size fit. The smaller size down is the one that ended up fitting.

 

Keep the ingenuity flowing .

[HectorLooi]

4 hours ago, mbwatch said:

Are you suggesting that it is possible to use the supplied set of dies on the Chinese press with the smallest installed on the bottom to compress acrylic crystals?

Yes. I've been doing that for years. 

[VWatchie]

16 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I also remember being disappointed because i had just aquired a lovely Bergeon bench micrometer and was then informed i needed a jewelled pivot gauge

Been exactly there myself. Trying to find smart ways to avoid getting more and more tools seems to be one of the biggest challenges  Patience, and more patience, sometimes for years is sometimes required to find the right tool at the right price. Like my Mastercraft mainspring winder.

[Neverenoughwatches]

39 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Been exactly there myself. Trying to find smart ways to avoid getting more and more tools seems to be one of the biggest challenges  Patience, and more patience, sometimes for years is sometimes required to find the right tool at the right price. Like my Mastercraft mainspring winder.

I cant agree more Watchie. I spend a fair amount of time doing just that. Ive been looking for a jacot and various repivoting tools for around 6 months, i finally struck lucky and got some bargains last week. All that remains now is for me to learn how use them. I had to stop myself when i found a Platax tool and a hairspring vibrator. Was very tempted though

[MechanicMike]

On 9/18/2022 at 3:14 AM, VWatchie said:

I remember @nickelsilver mentioning that the risk of denting very small pivots (<= 0.12mm, if I remember correctly) is imminent with a micrometre, so I always use my Seitz jewel gauge.

thats a great point. i'm so used to usings micrometers on "regular machinist stuff" that to use them on pivots is a whole new world to me. The Seitz gauge has been a great addition to my bench. that, and a pin gauge set idea from dadistic? I think it was, has advanced the hobby into some new realms. 

[ifibrin]

I don’t normally post about Chinese tools, because I am apprehensive about supporting direct copies/clones of existing tools. However, I recently came across this hand remover press on AliExpress, which looks quite distinct from the existing Horotec one.

In fact, it’s design looks quite good, with a movable rack supported head (with Vernier scale) to allow you to adjust the height of the hand remover on the go. Any of you guys interested? The price is also much less than the Horotec one. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004261155255.html

Edited September 26, 2022 by ifibrin

[Paul80]

I have just taken delivery of one of these myself.  After the nightmare I had with a Tag Heuer where the seconds hand popped off its tube when I used hand leavers like I always did with all the other watches I have stripped down, one set of Tag hands cost me £120, so the price paid for the hand lift tool £145 is not so bad if it saves me from that nightmare situation again.

They are well made and a quality product, just got to wait for the next Tag to land on my desk to try it out in anger.

Also remember not all these Chinese tools are clones or copies, some of them are the same tools some of the Swiss makers claim to make, they have their tools made in China and just package them in made in Switzerland boxes.

I have some that are so identical the parts are fully interchangable with the Swiss version and all the machining marks are identical, showing they are off the same production line, and just sent to a different logo printer.

The Swiss watch industry is a very shady industry, from watch makers only being bracelet makers who use a generic movement from a movement maker to the likes of Rolex who although they are a multi million company don't pay any tax because they are set up as a charitable organisation but only fund themselves, to their tool makers who have their tools made in China but claim they are made in Switzerland and charge over inflated prices for the same tool that can sometimes be bought direct from China at a fraction of the price the Swiss charge.

[ifibrin]

23 minutes ago, Paul80 said:

They are well made and a quality product, just got to wait for the next Tag to land on my desk to try it out in anger.

Any chance you can take some pictures and give a quick review of the tool? I suspect many of us will be quite interested in this tool.

 

23 minutes ago, Paul80 said:

Also remember not all these Chinese tools are clones or copies, some of them are the same tools some of the Swiss makers claim to make, they have their tools made in China and just package them in made in Switzerland boxes.

I agree that some of the Swiss-branded tools are at least made in part in China, but touched-up/finished marginally in Switzerland. On the other hand, some of the Chinese tools are really a direct clone of the tool, which wouldn’t be so vexing if they actually worked as advertised: I bought some pallet forks for 2824-2 from china which were advertised to be compatible with ETA 2824-2 but couldn’t fit in the jewels.

I have had better experience with Chinese tools that have their their own branding (such as Weishi), but even then, there are sometimes multiple listings on AliExpress of seemingly identical items with different Chinese brands. I would think that if one was a Chinese-speaking watch enthusiast in China, it would be easier to locate reliable Chinese tool manufacturers (as @HectorLooi previously mentioned) but for us, we have to rely on actual reviews from people who own the item!

Edited September 26, 2022 by ifibrin

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Paul80 said:

The Swiss watch industry is a very shady industry, from watch makers only being bracelet makers who use a generic movement from a movement maker to the likes of Rolex who although they are a multi million company don't pay any tax because they are set up as a charitable organisation but only fund themselves, to their tool makers who have their tools made in China but claim they are made in Switzerland and charge over inflated prices for the same tool that can sometimes be bought direct from China at a fraction of the price the Swiss charge

It sounds as though you are happy with this situation and have no ill feelings towards Swiss manufacturers whatsoever. 

[Paul80]

What have it away 

[watchweasol]

According to EU laws  as was, if the material supplied to the tool maker is of Swiss origin, then they are allowed to call it "swiss made".   I watched a Panorama program   some years ago regarding medical forceps "made in Germany" which were actually made in in India by a couple of guys in a back street,  out sourced by a company. The quality Guy in the UK rejected about 60% as being of no use and were sold via the tool industry for non medical use.

I have read some Rolex products are made and assembled in China and shipped back to Rolex for finishing,  whether that's true or not,  I wouldn't be surprised if it was.

[HectorLooi]

I have dental instruments which are supposed to be made in Germany but the metal has a yellowish hue, which is characteristic of surgical steel from Pakistan.

I met the manufacturer at a convention as ask him point blank, when we were alone, if his instruments were made in Pakistan. And he answered me, without any hesitation, that they are 100% made in Germany.

Prior to that meeting, I met the Pakistani manufacturer, who showed me a bagful of instruments with various brands on them, claiming to manufacture on behalf of those brands. The Germany brand was among them.

So who is telling the truth?

[ifibrin]

39 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

I met the manufacturer at a convention as ask him point blank, when we were alone, if his instruments were made in Pakistan. And he answered me, without any hesitation, that they are 100% made in Germany.

Prior to that meeting, I met the Pakistani manufacturer, who showed me a bagful of instruments with various brands on them, claiming to manufacture on behalf of those brands.

Technically, I wouldn’t trust either of them, as both would want to embellish the truth.

Its now common practice for tool manufacturers to manufacture at least some of their lower end tools in low cost countries, while manufacturing the higher end range in the home country. Other manufacturers have the bulk of the product manufactured in low cost countries, then ship it back home for final QC, assembly or finishing.

I would imagine that under such a scenario, both parties (the contractor, and contracted to) would want to claim as being the complete maker of the tool, but the truth may be somewhere in the middle.

On the other hand, it would be very bad PR if a company completely misrepresents where it’s products are made, especially if it’s relying on brand name for high prices: it would at least want to have some plausible deniability over interpretation of where it’s products are made. For the contracted to company, openly flaunting that it’s the maker for a big name is also kind of dubious, as it could potentially be a breach of NDA, or just killing the golden goose altogether. Not to mention, some of the claimed OEM makers of tools on AliExpress have products that do differ in minor ways from the supposed brand name products (in pictures), or just ship a different product entirely.

Edited September 26, 2022 by ifibrin

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, Paul80 said:

What have it away 

Just your subtle indications that gave me  vague hints mate.

[VWatchie]

13 hours ago, ifibrin said:

Any of you guys interested?

Sure!

13 hours ago, Paul80 said:

After the nightmare I had with a Tag Heuer where the seconds hand popped off its tube when I used hand leavers

Was it a chronograph? Can you explain in more detail what happened? I don't get it one bit. I've always used hand levers. I haven't done any chronographs.

Edited September 26, 2022 by VWatchie
Replaced the "What is" to "Was it a chronograph" ;)

[praezis]

11 hours ago, Paul80 said:

I have just taken delivery of one of these myself.  After the nightmare I had with a Tag Heuer where the seconds hand popped off its tube when I used hand leavers

Hi,
honestly, I cannot see the difference. The tool will pull the hand from its tube, no matter if supported in the center or on the sides (levers, Presto).

Damage cannot be avoided by the hands tool, but by a tube with collar only.

Frank

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, praezis said:

Hi,
honestly, I cannot see the difference. The tool will pull the hand from its tube, no matter if supported in the center or on the sides (levers, Presto).

Damage cannot be avoided by the hands tool, but by a tube with collar only.

Frank

I was wondering about that, but thought i would see what develops before i open my gob. Unless the lifter pulls the tube instead of the hands which isn't possible as the tube is buried. I personally couldnt see how it would make a difference either. Apart from a more expensive occasional tube popper off-er. 

Edited September 26, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[VWatchie]

39 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I was wondering about that, but thought i would see what develops before i open my gob. Unless the lifter pulls the tube instead of the hands which isn't possible as the tube is buried. I personally couldnt see how it would make a difference either. Apart from a more expensive occasional tube popper off-er. 

So, is this something chronograph specific?  What is "tube"? Help me out please!