Quality Chinese Tools

[lexacat]

29 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I've seen the Bergeon version but never figured out what this type of tool is used for. Anyone?

I think it's used to hold the balance. 

[JohnFrum]

9 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I've seen the Bergeon version but never figured out what this type of tool is used for. Anyone?

 

[LittleWatchShop]

This looks like an easy 3D printer task.  I will print one!

37 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

This looks like an easy 3D printer task.  I will print one!

I think it needs to be larger diameter and a little bit shorter.  Right now it is 10mm high and the diameter is 20mm.  Anybody give me some measurements?

[JohnFrum]

The Bergeon is 25 mm diameter, 5 mm high. The notch starts 5mm from one edge. The overhang is 1mm thick. 

What is nice about the brass Chinese version is the lower solid base supports the cock. You can easily place the immobilized balance under the microscope to inspect the impulse jewel and extended hairspring, place it into a jar of Hexane etc for cleaning, back under the microscope etc. 

[LittleWatchShop]

Here are the three pieces I printed of different sizes.  Good practice using ABS filament, at least.

[Vinito]

Just thought I'd toss my "review" in there about cheap Ama/Bay crystal lifts. Just FYI

I got one a week ago and tried it out. It simply will NOT grip a crystal enough to do the trick. The crystal I used it on seemed perfect, i.e. nearly 1/8" straight sides before it bent over to the face. Should be perfect for a crystal lift, but the chinese one just slipped off this crystal and was almost totally ineffective. I eventually pushed down very firmly and cranked the grip enough to just barely get the crystal off the case. Would be impossible to lift a crystal with any taper to it.

I subsequently found a used Vigor a couple days later for just a few dollars more. It was in fine condition and it gripped the same crystal with nearly zero effort enough to function very well. Night & day.
I would think a guy could dress the chinese gripper ends to better grab crystals but don't know for sure. I'm positive you could improve them some amount. But seems like good "real" ones are fairly commonly available on eBay for similar money, at worst just a few bucks more.

Cicom: $16.50 tmd

vs. Classic Vigor: $21+ $7 shipping

For what it's worth

Edited January 9, 2023 by Vinito

[Paul80]

The problem with the Chinese one you got is that the fingers although brass coloured are actually made from Aluminium so cannot grip hard enough to squeeze the crystal, if you shop around there are much better ones from China with much harder fingers  (possibly stainless steel) which do work well.

[Vinito]

1 hour ago, Paul80 said:

The problem with the Chinese one you got is that the fingers although brass coloured are actually made from Aluminium so cannot grip hard enough to squeeze the crystal, if you shop around there are much better ones from China with much harder fingers  (possibly stainless steel) which do work well.

me being a machinist, given only those two choices, I would prefer the fingers be made from Al instead of brass anyway. brass is soft too but is slippery while un-anodized aluminum tends to be grippy. So the problem isn't that they faked the brass look, but rather that the 

'brass" color is obviously the dye applied after anodizing, a process that hardens the surface only, but also erases the "sticky" property of unprocessed aluminum.

So the problem is twofold with a third negative added: 1) Anodizing the fingers just makes them slippery in direct conflict with what you want it to do 2) The shape of the tips of the fingers is flawed enough that it exacerbates the lack of grippyness and on top of this, the choice of aluminum fingers guarantees lower robustness. Should have just made them from steel in my opinion - it's even less expensive than aluminum!

Edited January 10, 2023 by Vinito

[HectorLooi]

I have not seen any Chinese tool with stainless claws yet.

I think brass is a good material. The vintage ones all used brass and have survived decades of use.

I had a Chinese one made of aluminium and the gripping was ok. The problem was when encountering a difficult crystal, the pressure exerted on the claws by the rim of the body of the tool actually makes dents into the claws. Now, with notches on the claws, the force needed to get out of the depressions is so great that something eventually breaks.

Then I got an Indian made one with brass claws. It worked great for a while until the aluminum hub which held the claws deform from repeated use.

So, IMO, a vintage Vigor is anytime better than modern c..p.

[JohnFrum]

AliX has this little USB microscope for 12 USD. 

While I have a (Chinese) stereo microscope, certain tasks like positioning a pump pusher over a jewel require bringing out the loupe. 
This USB microscope caught my attention as a possible loupe replacement. 
Here are photos taken of a pallet fork bridge jewel with pivot and the balance roller jewel of an 1104 movement. 

Quite a decent inspection and aligning tool for 12 US dollars. 

[Anthony7]

Personally after looking at all of this and having bought chinese tools in the past (seems to be about all you can buy these days, as they have taken over Ebay and Ali express is just solely for them and everyone on Amazon just resells this tat) that it is really not worth buying any of this crap.

They are ALWAYS disapointing in quality and take forever to arrive. Relying on the laziness of westerners to not bother complaining or getting a refund from paypal, which means that the mopes that make this crud get paid anyway. 
Really I think all this cheap shoddy chinese junk should be banned off any good tool site as it is all nothing but that. Cheap junky copies of good tools that if you use them you will do a half job. 
For me the phrase Chinese tools = waste of money spent on something of better quality.
And if Bergeon are getting their tools made there and marking up on them then shame on them. but I think not, as nothing that comes from china is ever "well made" in my experience.

also although instructive as to what is out there, its not that helpful as all the links to ali express lead nowhere as all these sellers on there and ebay are fly by nights...
So really rather than funding the economy of an oppressive regime I would rather personally spend the extra money on something made in the west.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Anthony7

[GuyMontag]

3 minutes ago, Anthony7 said:

Personally after looking at all of this and having bought chinese tools in the past (seems to be about all you can buy these days, as they have taken over Ebay and Ali express is just solely for them and everyone on Amazon just resells this tat) that it is really not worth buying any of this crap.

They are ALWAYS disapointing in quality and take forever to arrive. Relying on the laziness of westerners to not bother complaining or getting a refund from paypal, which means that the mopes that make this crud get paid anyway. 
Really I think all this cheap shoddy chinese junk should be banned off any good tool site as it is all nothing but that. Cheap junky copies of good tools that if you use them you will do a half job. 
For me the phrase Chinese tools = waste of money spent on something of better quality.
And if Bergeon are getting their tools made there and marking up on them then shame on them. but I think not, as nothing that comes from china is ever "well made" in my experience.

also although instructive as to what is out there, its not that helpful as all the links to ali express lead nowhere as all these sellers on there and ebay are fly by nights...

I've been pretty happy with my Aliexpress purchases. Not all of them, but most of them.

[LittleWatchShop]

3 minutes ago, Anthony7 said:

Personally after looking at all of this and having bought chinese tools in the past (seems to be about all you can buy these days, as they have taken over Ebay and Ali express is just solely for them and everyone on Amazon just resells this tat) that it is really not worth buying any of this crap.

They are ALWAYS disapointing in quality and take forever to arrive. Relying on the laziness of westerners to not bother complaining or getting a refund from paypal, which means that the mopes that make this crud get paid anyway. 
Really I think all this cheap shoddy chinese junk should be banned off any good tool site as it is all nothing but that. Cheap junky copies of good tools that if you use them you will do a half job. 
For me the phrase Chinese tools = waste of money spent on something of better quality.
And if Bergeon are getting their tools made there and marking up on them then shame on them. but I think not, as nothing that comes from china is ever "well made" in my experience.

also although instructive as to what is out there, its not that helpful as all the links to ali express lead nowhere as all these sellers on there and ebay are fly by nights...

Don't hold back.  Tell us what you really think.

It is possible for the Chinese to make quality tools...they have the know how.  All but maybe one or two things I have are Swiss or Am...but I inherited them--a time before Chinese tools.

[Anthony7]

1 minute ago, GuyMontag said:

I've been pretty happy with my Aliexpress purchases. Not all of them, but most of them.

Quite the opposite for me...they are not much cheaper than the quality brands are blatant copyright theft and are just shoddy crap that lasts not long usually. Just a rip off, but when they are 90% of what you can buy online then I'm not surprised you are satisfied as good tools are hard to find these days...

 

[grsnovi]

2 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

It is possible for the Chinese to make quality tools...they have the know how.

They also have the ability to undercut the labor % and the cache associated with (say Swiss) other tools.

However I also avoid them for "real" tools - in my opinion you never lose money on investing in tools or books.

[Anthony7]

23 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Don't hold back.  Tell us what you really think.

It is possible for the Chinese to make quality tools...they have the know how.  All but maybe one or two things I have are Swiss or Am...but I inherited them--a time before Chinese tools.

Isnt that what thinking is for...

But no I dont think it is possible for the chinese to make quality tools as they do everything on the cheap and nasty as a philosophy, so they can sell it to fools in the west for buttons that to them is steady profit.

I've had all this before with car tools, all cheap chinese crap, buying the same thing over and over again. But when you buy snap on you buy it once and if it does break which sometimes happens they give you a new one...

 

18 minutes ago, grsnovi said:

They also have the ability to undercut the labor % and the cache associated with (say Swiss) other tools.

However I also avoid them for "real" tools - in my opinion you never lose money on investing in tools or books.

Quite, good tools are an investment, these are just all shoddy...

Edited January 17, 2023 by Anthony7

[grsnovi]

1 minute ago, Anthony7 said:

But no I don't think it is possible for the Chinese to make quality tools

Well, they manage to put people into space which seems to suggest some degree of sophistication.

[Anthony7]

I mean the fact that you are buying a crystal press that has to be aligned should tell you enough or crystal lifts that don't grip the crystal...

All things that point out to me that although they look the genuine article they fail the test that all GOOD tools should pass,
quality materials, i.e Robustness, quality engineering and exact specifications...
none of this crap passes those tests...
 

my only defence for it is like the guy said who started the thread (for the hobbyist with little money) but even then mostly with those presses (which are just a bit of aluminium and plastic) when push comes to shove they are way overpriced still so for two of those (which you'll end up buying like with all cheapo tools) you could have had a good one that lasts...

But I think that this is also the fault of the watch making community for agreeing to pay such gouging prices for what are in general simplistic tools and of the greedy swiss manufacturers that milk every last dime they can get out of an honest watchmaker...Which is why you never see a poor swiss, as even their chocolate costs more than anybody elses...

17 minutes ago, grsnovi said:

Well, they manage to put people into space which seems to suggest some degree of sophistication.

Yes but not with the manufacture we are talking about here.
Everyone I know that has had dealing with China in the manufacturing sector ends up blowing them off as all they are is a lot of nods and smiles and excuses but the product remains poor. Unlike british and American engineering that prides itself on product and reputation these people are just after a fast buck and man do they get it...like I said I stand by my first comment its all rubbish, don't buy it...simple as...

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Anthony7

[LittleWatchShop]

17 minutes ago, Anthony7 said:

Quite good tools are an investment, these are just all shoddy...

How do you feel about the Weishi Timegrapher? 

[Anthony7]

1 minute ago, LittleWatchShop said:

How do you feel about the Weishi Timegrapher? 

I think a stopped clock is right twice a day...

[LittleWatchShop]

Just now, Anthony7 said:

I think a stopped clock is right twice a day...

This is true.  I would say that it is an excellent machine at a very reasonable price compared to the Witschi. I think you paint with a broad brush.

Virtually every hobbiest/amateur on this board uses the Weishi and are happy with it as far as I can tell.

Furthermore, the Chinese have several semiconductor foundries that produce world-class chips.  So they can go to space and mass-produce good semiconductors.

I am not offended by your rant...quite enjoy it.  But I think your argument is too simplistic...too binary.  Buy a Chinese screwdriver and put a Bergeon blade on it.  Voila...you have a quality product.  Or pay twice and get a Bergeon.  I have lots of Bergeon and a couple of Chinese, so I can compare the quality...pretty close except for the blades.

[Anthony7]

15 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

This is true.  I would say that it is an excellent machine at a very reasonable price compared to the Witschi. I think you paint with a broad brush.

Virtually every hobbiest/amateur on this board uses the Weishi and are happy with it as far as I can tell.

Furthermore, the Chinese have several semiconductor foundries that produce world-class chips.  So they can go to space and mass-produce good semiconductors.

I am not offended by your rant...quite enjoy it.  But I think your argument is too simplistic...too binary.  Buy a Chinese screwdriver and put a Bergeon blade on it.  Voila...you have a quality product.  Or pay twice and get a Bergeon.  I have lots of Bergeon and a couple of Chinese, so I can compare the quality...pretty close except for the blades.

Good luck working for the Communist Chinese board of trade...
I don't wish to argue the toss with you, I gave an honest opinion on what I think about this shoddy crap and the false economies of people that buy it, not a rant as you describe it. If you can't accept that that's your problem. This discussion is over...
But I think what a lot of people need to realise is that watch repair and buying watches in general is not a cheap hobby, unless you want to do things on the cheap and make a half job of everything.
Rambling is a cheap hobby, all you need is a pair of boots and the outdoors.
But this is like with anything, be it auto repair, golf or this.
In my experience more often than not "You get what you pay for."

[dadistic]

You can also get taken by being deceived by "branding", marketers understand the psychology of this very,very, well.  

[JohnFrum]

I’ve got a Chinese timegrapher, stereo microscope, ultrasonic cleaner, Horia jeweling tool clone etc that I’m quite pleased with.
As a hobbyist these Chinese tools have allowed me (as my skills slowly develop) to progress in watch repair in a way I did not think possible when I started. Yesterday I replaced the balance staff and palette fork pivot jewels of a Seiko 1104A practice movement. Have an issue with the hairspring but I’m getting better.
The equivalent Swiss tools are not affordable for the hobbyist. My 99 USD jeweling tool clone from China works just fine for my occasional usage. There is also nothing shoddy about it. The Swiss original is 500 GBP for the tool and another 1000 GBP for the set of pump pushers. The original undoubtedly has better fit and finish and for a professional are a necessary investment in their business but I am just a simple hobbyist reading Fried and De Carle books and practicing on a few dozen old ladies movements I bought for 2 USD each from SpeedtimerKollektion. 
 

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by JohnFrum

[Paul80]

I have quite a collection of high quality well made Chinese tools that are so identical to the Bergeon and Horotec tools that I am totally convinced that Bergeon and Horotec and many others all have their tools made in China and then just pack them in boxes with made in Switzerland printed on them.

The tools are absolutely identical in every way apart from branding, they have identical machining marks, the parts are fully interchangable.  The only difference is the price.

Don't think the Swiss would do such a thing, remember the whole Swiss watch industry is based on a lie, many claim to be watch makers but are only bracelet and case makers, dropping in some generic movement they bought from the likes of ETA etc, then charging a high price just based on their name. Some of them even though they have a multi million turnover are listed as charities so don't pay a cent in tax (Rolex) for example. If they are dishonest with their tax they are going to be dishonest in ather ways as well.

The Swiss watch industry is a shady business from end to end so I find it quite easy to find they have products made in China and claim they make them themselves so they can hike the the price by in some cases a huge amount.

Take the Bergeon 4 plunger hand setter, almost a grand, the identical one from China is £100. I have one and compared it side by side with the Bergeon, other than the branding and box there is absolutely no difference with all the parts being fully interchangable.

Obviously not all tools from China are worth even their low prices but many are, just do your research before hitting the buy button.

That's it, off my soap box.

Hat coat door bye