Quality Chinese Tools

[tomh207]

Hi have Chinese tools alongside Bergeon and Horotec. The Chinese tools I fully expected to have to fettle them to make them better. I was disappointed that I had to do the same with the Swiss tools albeit to a lesser degree. However if I spend £100 on a Chinese tool and need to spend 3 hours fettling it compared to an hour fettling a £500 Swiss tool I think I have still won out.

 

Tom

[JohnFrum]

32 minutes ago, Paul80 said:

I have quite a collection of high quality well made Chinese tools that are so identical to the Bergeon and Horotec tools that I am totally convinced that Bergeon and Horotec and many others all have their tools made in China and then just pack them in boxes with made in Switzerland printed on them.

 

Some of these tools are so specialized and have such a limited market (the GY0105 Hand press comes to mind) that I doubt someone in China just decided to copy it. Some are undoubtedly made in the same factories that produced the original for western clients. 

Does anyone complain about their Iphones made in China (but designed in California) ? Anything shoddy about it? 

Even in cases where the Chinese version is demonstrably inferior, it may be good enough for the hobbyist especially when the cost of the original is high.

My Amscope is no Zeiss. I have used Zeiss microscopes and the optics and general fit of the Amscope are far from them. But it is perfect for the hobbyist  

I use a cheap Chinese micropipette to dispense the expensive Swiss oil from the tiny bottles. It is no Eppendorf but it works just fine and is affordable.

JMT

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by JohnFrum

[HectorLooi]

4 hours ago, Anthony7 said:

Good luck working for the Communist Chinese board of trade...
I don't wish to argue the toss with you, I gave an honest opinion on what I think about this shoddy crap and the false economies of people that buy it, not a rant as you describe it. If you can't accept that that's your problem. This discussion is over...
But I think what a lot of people need to realise is that watch repair and buying watches in general is not a cheap hobby, unless you want to do things on the cheap and make a half job of everything.
Rambling is a cheap hobby, all you need is a pair of boots and the outdoors.
But this is like with anything, be it auto repair, golf or this.
In my experience more often than not "You get what you pay for."

Xenophobia was exactly what put the Chinese back a hundred years.

How many ideas did the West borrow from the East?

We all learn from one another. That's how we progress. If one closes his doors and mind to the outside world, that's when stagnation and decay starts.

Competition is good. It keeps one moving forward. 

[Anthony7]

here is the best site I have found for tools. usually good quality and reasonable in price... I personally have found Etsy to far superior both in quality and price...

https://www.etsy.com/shop/alfindingsltd?ref=shop_sugg_market&section_id=15829583

And I think what set china back a 100 years was their beating their teachers and intellectuals to death during the cultural revolution...
But Like I said before this is not about Xenophobia or politics, this is about buying the best bang for your bucks and if you want to waste your money on crap tools, be my guest...

2 minutes ago, Anthony7 said:

here is the best site I have found for tools. usually good quality and reasonable in price... I personally have found Etsy to far superior both in quality and price...

https://www.etsy.com/shop/alfindingsltd?ref=shop_sugg_market&section_id=15829583

And I think what set china back a 100 years was their beating their teachers and intellectuals to death during the cultural revolution...
But Like I said before this is not about Xenophobia or politics, this is about buying the best bang for your bucks and if you want to waste your money on crap tools, be my guest...

But I think you should learn to take someones opinion on something without immediately getting personal and branding them a xenophobe or whatever to make your point. 

[LittleWatchShop]

7 minutes ago, Anthony7 said:

I personally have found Etsy to far superior both in quality and price

Well, I never really looked there for watch stuff.  Interesting.

[Anthony7]

6 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Well, I never really looked there for watch stuff.  Interesting.

a real lot of variety there. watch parts for sale in bulk as parts for art projects and alot of stuff for watchmaking on there...Well woth a look...Tends to beat Amazon, Ebay on price and the sellers are often from Europe so it means you arent waiting forever for your disapointment...
As that has been my overall experience of buying anything online.
if you can't get your hands on the goods to inspect them all you are working off is a picture, the sellers tend to make everything out to be better than it is and when you get it its usually useless...

I have stopped buying from China and chinese sellers for that reason and that reason alone as I got sick of wasting my time and money. 
This opinion has not only been formed over watchmaking.

I restore cars, I used to buy chinese tools off ebay,
found out they were good for one use maybe two then useless...
Now I buy snap on or a couple of other better brands works out cheaper in the long run.

I also build and restore guitars, used to buy cheap pots and some components from chinese manufacturers, nothing but constant disapointment in the quality, fitment and reliability.

Now I buy from us suppliers that don't use their goods.
More expensive but right every time, thus saving me time, trouble, returns, language difficulties and the all round general aggravation of dealing with people that only give you sorries and excuses for why they're constantly **BLEEP**ing up and selling you rubbish that isnt worth what you pay for it cheap as it is...
So anyone can make a chocolate spanner, coat it in silver paper and sell it on Ebay or whereever but you won't get very far with it and i've found in my experience that tools are 90% of any job and skill the rest. So If i'm using bad tools the work I do suffers and that is not what i'm about.

 

[LittleWatchShop]

After a quick look, it appears the pricing is over the top...with a watchful eye, better deals can be had on ebay...at least from my initial analysis.

[tomh207]

If you really look at that Etsy shop it is selling stuff you buy on aliexpress or bangood. There is nowhere outside of China and India making these tools cheap enough to sell for those prices.

 

Tom

[LittleWatchShop]

5 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

If you really look at that Etsy shop it is selling stuff you buy on aliexpress or bangood. There is nowhere outside of China and India making these tools cheap enough to sell for those prices.

 

Tom

I just look at vintage tools, myself.  That is chancy too because you might get a pin vise that has been mistreated.  I have a few of those!!  I watch ebay every day and have a long list of saved items.  I have gotten some very good deals and some not-so-good deals. 

I shop FB marketplace as well.  That is where I got my Levin lathe with cross slide and 4-jaw chuck for $300.  That was the best deal I ever got!!  You just have to watch constantly and keep track of what stuff is going for.

[tomh207]

@LittleWatchShop when I look at UK vintage tool auctions on eBay it is the only time I wish I lived in the USA, a lot of more sensible prices you folks have. Just the other day I saw a couple of buy it now bergeon crystal lift platforms for £35.00, I bought mine new from cousinsuk for £15.00.

seems watchmaking stuff has gone the route of marine stuff, inflated because people have a strange notion that they are worth a lot of money.

 

Tom

[GuyMontag]

2 hours ago, Anthony7 said:

 

But I think you should learn to take someones opinion on something without immediately getting personal and branding them a xenophobe or whatever to make your point. 

Opinions are worth considering when they are offered with reason. Yours were not; All Chinese made tools are crap. End of story. You are telling us that all of the tools that I and others here have bought and used are garbage. Why? Because you say so. Well, you are wrong and you have shown that you are totally unwilling to listen to other viewpoints that contradict your own, viewpoints that are based in actual hands on experience with the tools mentioned in this thread. If you have actual experience with any of the products mentioned in this thread then please quote the original post and give your feedback. That is what this thread is for. But please don't come in hear and take a huge non-reasoned dump in the middle of the topic and then expect everyone to, for some reason, respect that. That's not how discourse works.

[Kalanag]

On 1/18/2023 at 3:34 PM, Anthony7 said:

here is the best site I have found for tools. usually good quality and reasonable in price... I personally have found Etsy to far superior both in quality and price...

https://www.etsy.com/shop/alfindingsltd?ref=shop_sugg_market&section_id=15829583

At first glance the quality of these tools doesn‘t convince me. Here is an example:

Edited January 19, 2023 by Kalanag

[mikepilk]

13 minutes ago, Kalanag said:

At first glance the quality of these tools doesn‘t convince me. Here is an example:

They look poor, Like the set I first bought. I tried to reshape them, but the metal was poor quality and they never worked well. Like screwdrivers and tweezers, it's a tool worth spending a bit more to get better quality, as you use them all the time. I bought some Horotec levers, they are so nice to use. 

[LittleWatchShop]

30 minutes ago, Kalanag said:

At first glance the quality of these tools doesn‘t convince me. Here is an example:

No kidding!  The design is flawed!! 

[grsnovi]

On 1/18/2023 at 7:10 AM, Anthony7 said:

I have stopped buying from China

The January 2023 issue of HOROLOGICAL TIMES has a10 page article on the Chinese Chung CZ50 watchmaker's lathe. The article concludes by saying: "For some, the Chinese origin may be an impediment to purchase, but if so, it will not be because of a quality issue. The lathe is everything one could want for accuracy, precision and quality."

[LittleWatchShop]

30 minutes ago, grsnovi said:

Chinese Chung CZ50 watchmaker's lathe

Where can I get one??

[HectorLooi]

Here's a photo of my $15 aliexpress hand levers that has several years of abuse.

[ifibrin]

On 1/19/2023 at 1:43 AM, GuyMontag said:

Opinions are worth considering when they are offered with reason. Yours were not; All Chinese made tools are crap. End of story. You are telling us that all of the tools that I and others here have bought and used are garbage.

I think @Anthony7 is right in that some (maybe many) Chinese tools sold online on sites such as eBay or AliExpress are dodgy, or not worth the little money they cost. This is especially true of unbranded fly by night operators who offer products that come different from the pictures provided, or of entirely different products. I have experienced this before.

HOWEVER, when buying Chinese tools, you really have to “buy the seller”, meaning that you need to purchase the tools from a SPECIFIC SELLER on the platform, who may be offering a specific “unbranded brand”. Such tools obtained can be very economical for GOOD quality. Which is entirely the point of this thread, to showcase what Chinese tools, and from whom they may be obtained.

One important caveat is that unbranded Chinese tools like to copy off one another, but built to a slightly different specification, which may or may not be entirely as good… so you really have to be very careful in doing your due diligence, which is why this thread is here. A lot of the dodgy sellers like to make new seller names frequently, and hawk their dodgy goods off to unsuspecting customers, so you should be wary of sellers that are very newly established.

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by ifibrin

[grsnovi]

1 hour ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Where can I get one??

The guy who wrote the article is David Lindow. His email <can't include email?> can be found on his company's website.

His company is in Pennsylvania: https://lindowmachineworks.com/

He likely has contact info for Michael Chung. The lathes are apparently built to order with 200 or so sold to date.

Edited January 20, 2023 by grsnovi

[Vinito]

9 hours ago, Kalanag said:

At first glance the quality of these tools doesn‘t convince me. Here is an example:

Just to add a different data point... I bought a pair of those very ones a couple weeks ago. I'm a beginner with watchmaking but I'm pretty decent at hand work & polishing & such, so I gave reshaping and polishing the terrible stock ends a try. I doubt they compete with the "big boys", but I will say they are at least a magnitude better than they were. I wouldn't even bother trying to use them before but they are at least actually useful now. Once you get under the awful blistered chrome or nickel or whatever plating, it's not exactly hard steel so I'm sure they won't last a lifetime, but they'll remove some hands now at least. Definitely start with getting under the plating - it's the worst I've ever seen.

[HectorLooi]

What @ifibrin is saying is very true. Another forum member from China did say in a post, that the export quality tools are inferior.

My mentor has connections with the watch industry in China and I have seen some of the Chinese tools he has and it's worlds apart.

I have seen watch testing instruments that he has that rival Witschi. I've seen tools that he has that the Western world has not seen. 

It's true that there are a lot of crappy Chinese tools out there. But there are some very good ones too.

[clockboy]

Chinese tools are good BUT beware!!!!

I was pestered by my dearest “ what can I buy you for Xmas”To save her money I suggested a watch hand lifting tool but not the Horotec tool but the Chinese copy. Available at Cousins and where it was purchased Ali Express. Yesterday was my first test and disappointing it was. Although it was supplied with a supporting  stand the actual pivot plunger (circled) does not centre and is loose. Therefore when lowering the pivot onto the hand pivot I had to jiggle it into the correct position.Also the the plate that slides under the hands seems to thick. Maybe there is a better way but not impressed and I suspect I will be making modifications to this tool which is very disappointing but as they say you only get what you pay for.

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by clockboy

[tomh207]

@clockboy

modification or fettling is the norm for cheap tools, and maybe to a lesser degree every tool. You have to dress screwdriver every time you use them and tweezers as well, no matter if they are made from Swiss unobtaniam or not. The really cheap stuff can really be a challenge though.

 

Tom

[clockboy]

1 hour ago, tomh207 said:

@clockboy

modification or fettling is the norm for cheap tools, and maybe to a lesser degree every tool. You have to dress screwdriver every time you use them and tweezers as well, no matter if they are made from Swiss unobtaniam or not. The really cheap stuff can really be a challenge though.

 

Tom

Yes correct. The BHI have done comprehensive tests on Chinese tools vs. Swiss and one difference always is the materials used ie metals are invariably softer which I suppose is not an issue was a hobbyist but as I have found horology can become obsessive and with it the frequency of repairs and servicing grows too.

Edited January 20, 2023 by clockboy

[GuyMontag]

13 hours ago, grsnovi said:

The guy who wrote the article is David Lindow. His email <can't include email?> can be found on his company's website.

His company is in Pennsylvania: https://lindowmachineworks.com/

He likely has contact info for Michael Chung. The lathes are apparently built to order with 200 or so sold to date.

Someone on Reddit was asked how they ordered theirs and they said they contacted him through his Instragram and ordered that way. Also, the one he got with the various options was $6K.