Quality Chinese Tools

[tomh207]

I think that if you really wanted to do this Alex’ method isn’t what would achieve close to perfection, clean only, maybe. To get a good result I think (with my engineering vectored brain) would be one of the following in decreasing expense:-

1 a lapping machine with a precision holder

2 watchmakers lathe

3 screw polishing lathe

4 screw polishing tripod with lapping plates and diamond pastes

 

my personal inclination would be option 4, the cheapest and easiest to do, if you can flatten and black polish a screw pushers and anvils should be easy.

 

Tom

[gpraceman]

22 hours ago, VWatchie said:

It looks nice after polishing and  I think the possible negative effect of the rounded edges is negligible. However, as long as there are no obvious burrs, rust, or nicks on the faces of the pushers, I think we have much better things to spend our time on!

I do also have to wonder if the pushers need to be polished to that degree.  I can certainly see dressing them if there are surface irregularities, but I wouldn't think that fine scratches would cause an issue.  But I'm just getting to the point in my watchmaking journey of replacing jewels, so who am I to say?

I did get a vintage Seitz set not too long ago and have cleaned, derusted and lightly oiled all of the pieces.  I haven't yet looked under the microscope to see what the tips look like, but I'm sure that some of them need to be dressed.

[Neverenoughwatches]

This is what seitz actually provide to do the job. I use a small diamond 2000 plate lap and a 3000 sintered ruby sharpening stone both with the jewelling tool to keep everything perpendicular.

[praezis]

As with many videos: long-winded and waste of time (imo). A polished and slippery tip is less than optimal. 

I use rectangular Degussit stones (the Seitz one is nearly polishing, takes too much time for my taste) exactly as Nev shows.

Frank

[VWatchie]

2 hours ago, gpraceman said:

I do also have to wonder if the pushers need to be polished to that degree.  I can certainly see dressing them if there are surface irregularities, but I wouldn't think that fine scratches would cause an issue.

If the pushers are only used for pushing jewels I don't see how they can become so worn that they need to be dressed. Moreover, if you do it incorrectly, there is a risk that they will become crooked and then there is a risk that the jewels will not be pressed in straight. If there are no obvious faults, I think we can leave it alone with a clear conscience.

[praezis]

34 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

if the pushers are only used for pushing jewels I don't see how they can become so worn that they need to be dressed

Good point. In fact I have to grind faces of my flat punches much more often (same procedure).

Frank

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

If the pushers are only used for pushing jewels I don't see how they can become so worn that they need to be dressed. Moreover, if you do it incorrectly, there is a risk that they will become crooked and then there is a risk that the jewels will not be pressed in straight. If there are no obvious faults, I think we can leave it alone with a clear conscience.

If used correctly then i would expect they only need dressing very rarely and in cases of misuse, accidental damage etc. The clone horia pushers are not the best of quality in terms of material used and machining surfaces, when I've used a size for the first time i always check the end, every one up to now has not past my inspection . When dressing them, do like fitting a balance staff and rotate the pusher with each pull stroke of the lap, this helps to keep the end square, work down to very light strokes and finish with a fine lap if you think it necessary. Occasionally i use a 3000 ruby stone if I'm in an a-nal mood but mostly just the lap plate shown now which was bought as 2000, i think it is rougher than that. The point of contact on the jewel is on the outside square edge unless it's domed in which case a concave pusher is used or we are pushing from underneath, either way the pusher mostly isn't touching a critical surface of the jewel that affects it's performance so i dont see the need for polishing a pusher and jewels are very hard and difficult to scratch with just steel .As an example, check out Jon's post on reducing a center wheel jewel.

Edited June 8, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches

[rjenkinsgb]

I've just receiver the Chinese jewel press set bought via ebay.

It looks good at first glance, quite a comprehensive set. The quality is what I'd think of as "OK" rather than "Excellent" - but at 1/10th the cost of a brand name one, that's pretty good!

The thimble thread is slightly loose, with roughly 0.2mm play between that an the non-rotating press pin, though I don't think that would matter as any play or backlash should be taken up as soon as the pressure is applied to a part.

The stumps and pushers look to have been either very finely machined or ground, then deburred - but not perfectly in some cases, there are traces of burs at some edges. Nothing that can't be cleaned up quite easily.

There were two different sets on ebay, one with just the jeweling tools, and another also with the brass movement holder set, fractionally cheaper??

I got the cheaper one. I'm not quite sure what the brass holders are supposed to be for, as they have hollow pointed adjustable grubscrews in the centres? The screws are just too long to be able to be set flush, other than removing them.

The steel base also has a thread in the lower end, plus a groove just below the surface.

 

The jewel stumps are a very varied fit in that; some good, some too tight to use! The bore just wants polishing out a minute amount, as the difference is stump diameters between the good fit ones and the non fitting ones is too small to read on my Mitutoyo 0.01mm verniers.

(Dug out my best micrometer - around six microns variation, so not bad).

 

The pushers all fit the "ram" perfectly; that also has a goove near the face, which has a spring clip giving good retention but still allowing easy removal.

The plastic tip pushers look like hand fitting tips? The blue banded one is a small solid tip, the other three are increasing sizes with hollow tips.

(There is a rigid plastic cover for the jewel tools, but no storage case for the press or kit).

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2024 by rjenkinsgb
Typo.

[tomh207]

@rjenkinsgb the movement holders and hand pushers are indeed for setting hands using the tool. I did think about getting that set when I bought my clone horia tool but at that time they cost a good chunk extra.

 

Tom

[rjenkinsgb]

20 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

the movement holders and hand pushers are indeed for setting hands using the tool.

That makes sense - but why do the holders have the hollow centre grubscrews, though? That's the bit that I find confusing. I just cannot think of any reason for them, from my limited experience so far?

[tomh207]

The centre grub screws should be adjusted to support the centre jewel when you push the seconds hand on.

 

Tom

[Knebo]

Oh, I find this set for hand-setting quite interesting! 

Do you think it could fit a Seitz press? Does it have 4mm shaft fittings? 

 

 

 

Different question (but related):

Does anyone have this tool? If so could you measure the diameter of the shaft (see picture)? 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005363501730.html

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005668229348.html

 

My hope is that they could fit on one of the punches of my staking set and that I could use it for hand-setting without getting a dedicated tool. 

Edited June 8, 2024 by Knebo

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Knebo said:

Oh, I find this set for hand-setting quite interesting! 

Do you think it could fit a Seitz press? Does it have 4mm shaft fittings? 

 

 

 

Different question (but related):

Does anyone have this tool? If so could you measure the diameter of the shaft (see picture)? 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005363501730.html

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005668229348.html

 

My hope is that they could fit on one of the punches of my staking set and that I could use it for hand-setting without getting a dedicated tool. 

You could actually make your own wooden pushers, drilled turned and shaped on a dremel type tool. I'll knock some up next week and add them to the thread. 

[rjenkinsgb]

4 hours ago, Knebo said:

Do you think it could fit a Seitz press? Does it have 4mm shaft fittings? 

Yep, they are 4mm

[Knebo]

45 minutes ago, rjenkinsgb said:

Yep, they are 4mm

You mean that the Seitz has a 4mm shaft (yes, I know) OR that the AliX tool has 4mm shafts? 

[rjenkinsgb]

The tool I bought has 4mm shafts.

[Knebo]

9 hours ago, rjenkinsgb said:

 

 

Ah yes, this one. Nice. 

Thanks! 

9 hours ago, rjenkinsgb said:

 

Edited June 8, 2024 by Knebo

[gpraceman]

16 hours ago, VWatchie said:

If the pushers are only used for pushing jewels I don't see how they can become so worn that they need to be dressed. Moreover, if you do it incorrectly, there is a risk that they will become crooked and then there is a risk that the jewels will not be pressed in straight. If there are no obvious faults, I think we can leave it alone with a clear conscience.

With vintage sets, rust can be an issue or damage from handling or shipping.  After derusting the pushers/stumps, there can be pits that remain.  Now that I have finished restoring my staking set, I'll turn my attention to my Seitz set.  It had some rusting to it when I got it.  I have all of the pieces now derusted, cleaned and lightly oiled.  Now I need to examine the condition of the pusher tips and see if any need to be dressed.

[Knebo]

On 6/8/2024 at 4:44 PM, Knebo said:

Different question (but related):

Does anyone have this tool? If so could you measure the diameter of the shaft (see picture)? 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005363501730.html

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005668229348.html

Nobody has this? 

[ColdWind]

1 hour ago, Knebo said:

Nobody has this? 

It's 4.6mm, my set looks a bit different but specs should be identical. This is a good set imo, clear plastic tips make the work easier and I don't like any metal tools to go near the hands or dial. The only negative about it is the smallest tip 0.8mm is actually not small enough for me, the inside of these tips are beveled it goes a bit over the cannon pinion, so the minute hand could be push in too far down. I don't like it so I grind the beveled out of the 0.8 tip (see photo). After modded the set works flawlessly.

 

Edited June 12, 2024 by ColdWind

[Knebo]

6 hours ago, ColdWind said:

It's 4.6mm, my set looks a bit different but specs should be identical. This is a good set imo, clear plastic tips make the work easier and I don't like any metal tools to go near the hands or dial. The only negative about it is the smallest tip 0.8mm is actually not small enough for me, the inside of these tips are beveled it goes a bit over the cannon pinion, so the minute hand could be push in too far down. I don't like it so I grind the beveled out of the 0.8 tip (see photo). After modded the set works flawlessly.

 

Fantastic, thanks! 

 

oh... and if it's not too much trouble, how long are they? I'm trying to gauge if it would work to stick them on a stake in my staking set and still have enough space to actually put in the movement (and hands)..

Edited June 12, 2024 by Knebo

[Zendoc]

Hi All,

Does anyone know if the Bergeon cannon pinion tightening tool (pusher and stump combo) #31001 will fit the Chinese Horia jeweling press clones?  I can’t find the dimensions of the Bergeon pieces.  Has anyone used this combination?

It seems to be a more versatile solution for cannon pinion tightening than investing in the Bergeon 4733 pliers and cheaper too - if the combination is possible.

Maybe someone knows?  Thank you!

 

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, Zendoc said:

Does anyone know if the Bergeon cannon pinion tightening tool (pusher and stump combo) #31001 will fit the Chinese Horia jeweling press clones?

I can't answer your question right now but I have these in my Seitz jewelling tool and my impression is that they are made for large, pocket watch size, cannon pinions. I prefer the Cannon Pinion Tightening Tool, Bergeon 4733. Perhaps the pusher and stump could be dressed to work better with small and normal cannon pinions!?

[Zendoc]

Thanks @VWatchie - I didn’t know that, I thought they’d be suitable for wrist watch sized cannon pinions, but maybe not.  What’s your experience of the Bergeon 4733?  Big expense for a set of end cutters with a threaded screw, but no-one else makes them, there aren’t any clones and I might not succeed in my quest to build @Canthus’ toenail clipper tool to do the job.  There’s a B 4733 sitting in my Cousins shopping cart but I’m exploring other options before I buy it.  I’d love to hear your experience of the 4733.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 minute ago, Zendoc said:

Thanks @VWatchie - I didn’t know that, I thought they’d be suitable for wrist watch sized cannon pinions, but maybe not.  What’s your experience of the Bergeon 4733?  Big expense for a set of end cutters with a threaded screw, but no-one else makes them, there aren’t any clones and I might not succeed in my quest to build @Canthus’ toenail clipper tool to do the job.  There’s a B 4733 sitting in my Cousins shopping cart but I’m exploring other options before I buy it.  I’d love to hear your experience of the 4733.

 

All the seitz anvils and pushers fit the 4mm clone and I use my Star stumps in the clone base as well. Its not a definite answer but Bergeon and Star lathe accessories are compatible so its possible the staking tool is the same fit. Try contacting Cousins for an accurate measurement.