Quality Chinese Tools

[Knebo]

3 hours ago, Zendoc said:

Hi All,

Does anyone know if the Bergeon cannon pinion tightening tool (pusher and stump combo) #31001 will fit the Chinese Horia jeweling press clones?  I can’t find the dimensions of the Bergeon pieces.  Has anyone used this combination?

It seems to be a more versatile solution for cannon pinion tightening than investing in the Bergeon 4733 pliers and cheaper too - if the combination is possible.

Maybe someone knows?  Thank you!

 

I've been using these in my Seitz press. I like the micrometric control and never had any issues (in the two cases that I tightened canon pinions ). 

I think they work fine for wrist watches. My intuition is that it's not supposed to be too sharp. It should compress a wider section of the canon pinion. If it was very narrow, I could imagine the inner tight part wearing out again quickly.

[Waggy]

4 hours ago, Zendoc said:

Does anyone know if the Bergeon cannon pinion tightening tool (pusher and stump combo) #31001 will fit the Chinese Horia jeweling press clones?  I can’t find the dimensions of the Bergeon pieces.  Has anyone used this combination?

Yes I have this combo and it works fine.

[tomh207]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

All the seitz anvils and pushers fit the 4mm clone and I use my Star stumps in the clone base as well. Its not a definite answer but Bergeon and Star lathe accessories are compatible so its possible the staking tool is the same fit. Try contacting Cousins for an accurate measurement.  

If you look at the bergeon complete set it is the only place a diameter for these is mentioned which is 4mm so should fit fine

 

Tom

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

All the seitz anvils and pushers fit the 4mm clone and I use my Star stumps in the clone base as well. Its not a definite answer but Bergeon and Star lathe accessories are compatible so its possible the staking tool is the same fit. Try contacting Cousins for an accurate measurement.  

If you look at the bergeon complete set it is the only place a diameter for these is mentioned which is 4mm so should fit fine

 

Tom

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

All the seitz anvils and pushers fit the 4mm clone and I use my Star stumps in the clone base as well. Its not a definite answer but Bergeon and Star lathe accessories are compatible so its possible the staking tool is the same fit. Try contacting Cousins for an accurate measurement.  

If you look at the bergeon complete set it is the only place a diameter for these is mentioned which is 4mm so should fit fine

 

Tom

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

All the seitz anvils and pushers fit the 4mm clone and I use my Star stumps in the clone base as well. Its not a definite answer but Bergeon and Star lathe accessories are compatible so its possible the staking tool is the same fit. Try contacting Cousins for an accurate measurement.  

If you look at the bergeon complete set it is the only place a diameter for these is mentioned which is 4mm so should fit fine

 

Tom

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

All the seitz anvils and pushers fit the 4mm clone and I use my Star stumps in the clone base as well. Its not a definite answer but Bergeon and Star lathe accessories are compatible so its possible the staking tool is the same fit. Try contacting Cousins for an accurate measurement.  

If you look at the bergeon complete set it is the only place a diameter for these is mentioned which is 4mm so should fit fine

 

Tom

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

All the seitz anvils and pushers fit the 4mm clone and I use my Star stumps in the clone base as well. Its not a definite answer but Bergeon and Star lathe accessories are compatible so its possible the staking tool is the same fit. Try contacting Cousins for an accurate measurement.  

If you look at the bergeon complete set it is the only place a diameter for these is mentioned which is 4mm so should fit fine

 

Tom

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

All the seitz anvils and pushers fit the 4mm clone and I use my Star stumps in the clone base as well. Its not a definite answer but Bergeon and Star lathe accessories are compatible so its possible the staking tool is the same fit. Try contacting Cousins for an accurate measurement.  

If you look at the bergeon complete set it is the only place a diameter for these is mentioned which is 4mm so should fit fine

 

Tom

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

All the seitz anvils and pushers fit the 4mm clone and I use my Star stumps in the clone base as well. Its not a definite answer but Bergeon and Star lathe accessories are compatible so its possible the staking tool is the same fit. Try contacting Cousins for an accurate measurement.  

If you look at the bergeon complete set it is the only place a diameter for these is mentioned which is 4mm so should fit fine

 

Tom

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

All the seitz anvils and pushers fit the 4mm clone and I use my Star stumps in the clone base as well. Its not a definite answer but Bergeon and Star lathe accessories are compatible so its possible the staking tool is the same fit. Try contacting Cousins for an accurate measurement.  

If you look at the bergeon complete set it is the only place a diameter for these is mentioned which is 4mm so should fit fine

 

Tom

[Neverenoughwatches]

11 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

If you look at the bergeon complete set it is the only place a diameter for these is mentioned which is 4mm so should fit fine

 

Tom

If you look at the bergeon complete set it is the only place a diameter for these is mentioned which is 4mm so should fit fine

 

Tom

If you look at the bergeon complete set it is the only place a diameter for these is mentioned which is 4mm so should fit fine

 

Tom

If you look at the bergeon complete set it is the only place a diameter for these is mentioned which is 4mm so should fit fine

 

Tom

If you look at the bergeon complete set it is the only place a diameter for these is mentioned which is 4mm so should fit fine

 

Tom

If you look at the bergeon complete set it is the only place a diameter for these is mentioned which is 4mm so should fit fine

 

Tom

If you look at the bergeon complete set it is the only place a diameter for these is mentioned which is 4mm so should fit fine

 

Tom

If you look at the bergeon complete set it is the only place a diameter for these is mentioned which is 4mm so should fit fine

 

Tom

If you look at the bergeon complete set it is the only place a diameter for these is mentioned which is 4mm so should fit fine

 

Tom

I take it if you look at the bergeon complete set then ???? . Do we have a forum system error or is there an echo in here

[tomh207]

4 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I take it if you look at the bergeon complete set then ???? . Do we have a forum system error or is there an echo in here

It wasn’t accepting the submit so I may have hit the button a couple of times

[Neverenoughwatches]

Just now, tomh207 said:

It wasn’t accepting the submit so I may have hit the button a couple of times

Sorry i didnt get that Tom, can you repeat it please.

[mbwatch]

Seeing all these references to "the 4mm Horia clone" got me to start looking closely at details for listings to see they sell some with a 3mm spindle and some with a 4mm spindle, and far more with neither specified. Something I'll watch for when I finally buy one.

I do remember a Chronoglide video explaining their 4mm modded Horia that could be used with Seitz pushers.

[Zendoc]

@Waggy - thanks - that is what I wanted to hear.  The particular clone I’m looking it has specs  listing 3mm spindles and 4mm stumps, and after spending time down a rabbit hole, I’m pretty sure that’s going to take the Bergeon 31001 set.   Good to hear the combo works for you.  I have 2 restoration projects on the go here which have loose cannon pinions, so I’ll get to play with it at least twice!  

[Malocchio]

Do they actually make the Horia clone in 3mm too? Mine is 4mm both sides and I thought they all are. Yes 31001 fits the 4mm model and works great. I use it for seconds hand tightening too.

Edited June 15, 2024 by Malocchio

[Zendoc]

The Horia clones seem to have 3mm pushers and 4mm stumps - at least the ones I’m looking at have that listed in the specs.  But who knows, perhaps there are various iterations and most don’t list their specs.  I can’t find the specs for the 31001 listed anywhere.  Would you be able to measure the diameter of both sections and us know?  I suspect - but I don’t no for sure - that the stump is 4mm and the pusher is 3mm too.  It would be interesting to confirm.  Thanks Malocchio.

 

[tomh207]

My Horia clone is 4/4mm, I have seen 3/4mm on Ali but the 4/4mm is the more useful imo

 

Tom

[Waggy]

6 hours ago, Zendoc said:

I have 2 restoration projects on the go here which have loose cannon pinions, so I’ll get to play with it at least twice!  

the hardware works fine, but I need to work on my side of the equation, have squashed a few cannon pinions trying to find that 'Goldilocks' zone between too much force and not enough.

Edited June 15, 2024 by Waggy

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Malocchio said:

Do they actually make the Horia clone in 3mm too? Mine is 4mm both sides and I thought they all are. Yes 31001 fits the 4mm model and works great. I use it for seconds hand tightening too.

Apparently there are versions of the horia clone that are 3mm and 4mm, for some unknown reason i thought it was the stumps that varied and not the pushers but i may be wrong here. The clone i have both the pushers and stumps are 4mm and accept Seitz 4mm pushers and Star 4mm staking stumps and all the clone stumps fit the seitz and Star bases.

37 minutes ago, Waggy said:

the hardware works fine, but I need to work on my side of the equation, have squashed a few cannon pinions trying to find that 'Goldilocks' zone between too much force and not enough.

I take it you are sliding a restriction pin in the cp Scott. 

[Zendoc]

So there are a few variants of the Horia clone.  That’s why I’d like to know the dimensions of the Bergeon 31001 - I need a version that will accept whatever the dimensions of the Bergeon pieces are.  I’ll email Cousins on Monday and ask them, unless Malocchio is able to measure his set for me.   Then I’ll search for a clone to fit.  

@Waggy _ I can well  imagine it takes some practice. Likely I’ll wreck a few along the way. I’ll push a smoothing broach along the pipe and see if that limits the damage. 

[Waggy]

10 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I take it you are sliding a restriction pin in the cp Scott. 

I am now..... ha ha

Here are the dimensions of the Bergeon pin and stump I got from Cousins:

[Zendoc]

@Waggy - many thanks for measuring those dimensions.  Exactly what I needed to know.

I’ve ordered a set from Cousins,  along with a Horia clone from Ali with 4mm top and bottom.  Looks like they’ll work together. 

Cheers,

John

[gpraceman]

Anyone try this tool out?  Looks interesting that it is not just a crystal press.

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256806893585150.html

[Waggy]

@gpraceman Looks like they have just made an adapter for the upper part of the tool?

[gpraceman]

13 minutes ago, Waggy said:

@gpraceman Looks like they have just made an adapter for the upper part of the tool?

It comes with a set of accessories.  I assume that the red, yellow, withe, and black containers are different size push pins to resize bands.

Edited August 6, 2024 by gpraceman

[Knebo]

On 5/16/2022 at 12:27 PM, Paul80 said:

Hi all.

Its been awhile but now time to introduce the next tool in this series.

This time I introduce my Watherproof Watch Case opener, which is clearly based on the much more expensive Bergeon 5700.

I went with this one

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000394753607.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.7c8018028gGu7h

Which at £63 was quite a bit less than the £535 the Bergeon version is

Comparing the two side by side, there are a few differences most being cosmetic, like the measurement scale on the adjustable tool on the Bergeon version, on this version there a no scale markings, but in reality they are not needed, the only other difference is possibly the support spring, on the photos of the Bergeon one it appeares to be a little longer.

The Chinese one had one issue out of the box but it only took a few seconds to correct, out of the box the two raws (for want of a better word) were not quite the same difference from the center line of the tool, so with one lug in its slot in a case the other lug was out by about a millimeter.  This only took a few seconds to cottect by unscrewing the two locking grub screws in the Alluminium adjusters and sliding the threaded rod a millimeter to the correct position thenlock the screws gives an accurate possition.

One other difference that is first seen is the use of black plastic for the base were its wood on the bergeon tool, well it was wood on the Bergeon tool, as can be seen in the picture below even bergeon now sell their tool with a Plastic base.

Is this tool made in the same factory that Bergeon use for theirs but with less QC applied to keep the costs down, I would not be surprised, I worked in production engineering for years and seen the practice of having stuff made in China but boxed in their country and then claiming on the box to be made in the the boxing country before so would not be surprised if the reason so many Bergeon and Horotec tools look identical to some of the Chinese tools is because they all came of the same production line just with different finishing touches.

Still if its the same or not it does exactly waht it says it does on the tin (as they say) I comes with a useful selection of tools and adaptors to hold the case with or without a stap and different size and shape lugs in the case back.

If you only encounter a few divers watches with a super tight back this tool will pay for itself in no time at all.

pictures below, first is the current version of theBergeon tool, then a couple of the Chinese one I got from the link above.

 

On 6/4/2022 at 6:22 PM, Rutabaga said:

I could not open a watch case using my two different types of case openers so I decided to try out this Chinese 5700 type. While it took quite a bit of force to open the case,  the tool was easy to use. Quite worth it to save the aggravation and possible marking of the case.  As I am not a professional, the tool should be very satisfactory for my use.

 

So, I also took the chance and ordered a 5700 clone from AliX. Specifically from the shop called "Craftsman Tools Store" (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006905551233.html)

I wasn't happy, though. 

In my view, the headstock in the shaft has too much lateral play (I'm not sure I use the terms correctly, so the GIF image below will make it clear, I hope).

 

How are you REAL and CLONE 5700 presses in this regard? Am I too picky? 

I already got in touch with the seller and they confirmed that all their presses are like this (so not a one-off nor transport damage).

 

[mikepilk]

I bought a similar one, which turned up last month. There was no packing at all in the box, resulting in the handle being smashed, and the metal frame itself being bent !  I didn't want the hassle of sending it all back, so decided that if I could fix it, I would accept a partial refund. 

I managed to glue the handle back together, and with a car jack, managed to push the frame back in to shape - the metal is quite soft.

As with yours, there is quite a lot of play in all components. The bits were not being held symmetrically in the adjustable jaw holder.  Someone mentioned this previously. I had to re-centre the brass holders - quite easy to do by undoing some grub screws.

I was worried that with so much play, the jaws would slip out and damage the case. So I practiced on an old case.  What I did find was that when you have the jaws securely fastened, and the lock nut holding everything down,  it worked perfectly, and didn't slip once.  BTW you need to slacken the locking nut slightly to let the case back move up as you turn. 

[Knebo]

Thanks @mikepilk

I wonder if any owner of the REAL 5700 can tell us about the play/slack in their headstock/shaft... 

 

[mikepilk]

5 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Thanks @mikepilk

I wonder if any owner of the REAL 5700 can tell us about the play/slack in their headstock/shaft... 

 

If I'd spent £1200 on a Bergeon one, I'd be very disappointed if there was so much play. Looking at the pics, it's obviously better quality - see the much finer thread.

I'm happy that mine does a reasonable job, for £57. 

BTW I've just managed to remove almost all the play in the shaft. I used some .002" brass sheet to wrap around the shaft 

[Knebo]

5 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

BTW I've just managed to remove almost all the play in the shaft. I used some .002" brass sheet to wrap around the shaft 

Oh that's interesting. How did you practically do that? How does the sheet hold in place?

[mikepilk]

I bought a selection of brass shim sheet ( https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264432892126 ). The .002" fitted best.

I cut a strip, wrapped it round the shaft and pushed it in to the bearing. I've just put some Loctite on it, to hopefully hold it in place. There's very little play, and the brass works as a bearing surface. 

There is quite a lot of play in the adjustable jaws holder, but I don't see any fix for that unless you by the Bergeon version for £190.