Jump to content

Turning a balance staff--check my numbers

LittleWatchShop
 Share

Recommended Posts

Neverenoughwatches Distinguished Member

Neverenoughwatches

Posted
Posted
22 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

I haven't seen a balance complete that was intended to have the overcoil formed by the watchmaker, but it could exist. One thing to check- pretty much all Breguet springs have a collet with the hole for the spring significantly lower than a normal collet (normal would be hole right in the middle of the collet height). If your spring is in the middle, it was to be a flat spring.

I noticed that on the collet of a movado i have. At first i though the spring had been damaged. It runs amazingly well for what was a battered old watch.

14 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Here is what I purchased.  I have myself to blame, as clearly there is no overcoil in the pictures

2022-05-10 13_44_29-Cyma Cal 510 511 515 530 531 540 541 610 611 613 1713 1815 Balance Complete NOS .png

2022-05-10 13_44_10-Cyma Cal 510 511 515 530 531 540 541 610 611 613 1713 1815 Balance Complete NOS .png

2022-05-10 13_43_55-Cyma Cal 510 511 515 530 531 540 541 610 611 613 1713 1815 Balance Complete NOS .png

2022-05-10 13_43_43-Cyma Cal 510 511 515 530 531 540 541 610 611 613 1713 1815 Balance Complete NOS .png

I have my eye on a couple of donors as a backup.  One is in the UK and the seller will not ship to US, but another has already made the trip.  As earlier stated, I will attempt the over coil...but I need a backup plan.

I have been in contact with the seller.  This is my mistake due to my inexperience.  The seller offered to refund the sale, but I did not accept it since I clearly could see what I was buying.  Lesson learned.

The 571 can come with and w/o the over coil as seen in this document image.

New question.  Is the only difference between the planar and over coil implementations the regulator pin length?

s-l1600 (1).jpg

Although the package shows a breguet.  Whatever

 

Changed at some point in its life ? NOS or not. Robbed of it original hs replaced with a flat spring ?

23 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I just don’t know. What you say is plausible, however.

regardless, I am going to have to learn to bens a Breguet.

I watched a good video of how to bend a brequet while i was trying to work out what i had. I'll  see if i can find it and post a link. The music did my head in a bit though. Fortunately you can turn it down as there was no commentary. 

23 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I just don’t know. What you say is plausible, however.

regardless, I am going to have to learn to bens a Breguet.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ID2Ndl6igwM&t=101s

35 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I noticed that on the collet of a movado i have. At first i though the spring had been damaged. It runs amazingly well for what was a battered old watch.

Changed at some point in its life ? NOS or not. Robbed of it original hs replaced with a flat spring ?

I watched a good video of how to bend a brequet while i was trying to work out what i had. I'll  see if i can find it and post a link. The music did my head in a bit though. Fortunately you can turn it down as there was no commentary. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ID2Ndl6igwM&t=101s

The forming tweezers are ridiculously expensive. An old pair of standard are going to require some shaping and dressing.

Klassiker Distinguished Member

Klassiker

Posted
Posted

Hats off to you for attempting to form the overcoil yourself. You've nothing to lose If your conscience compels you to not return the incorrect part. Trying to find the correct part at the same time is obviously a good strategy. Apart from donors, I would keep up the search for the NOS part. Watchguy UK for example has a useful list of available parts and links to potential sellers. Good luck!

  • 3 months later...
LittleWatchShop Distinguished Member

LittleWatchShop

Posted
  • Author
Posted

This is iteration number six or seven...it is hard to keep count.  Methodology for this turn was aided by a number of phone calls with a forum member...coaching me...

I made a carbide file to do the finish work on the roller side.  It polishes extremely well.

Full disclosure...I started with a large pocket watch staff because I have had some issues with my other starting material.  However, I made every cut except for the hub.

I am posting this now while I am happy 😄😄 before disaster strikes.  Today, I will install the balance, check the fitting in the watch...then install the rest.

No matter what happens, I can say for sure that my skills (minimal as they are) are improving.

2022-08-20 09_21_33-IMG_8857.JPG ‎- Photos.png

I think the pivot on the left is a little short, but hoping it will work fine.

 

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
LittleWatchShop Distinguished Member

LittleWatchShop

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Update. The roller and hairspring fit fine except when I installed the balance, the roller jewel rides over the pallet horns, so the roller is sitting too high. I am going to have to nudge it down a bit.

I use Rex Roller Remover whenever messing with rollers, so I think I will set it up and just tap the balance down a hair.

My respect for you guys who do this stuff daily has gone up an order of magnitude!

  • Like 1
nickelsilver Distinguished Member

nickelsilver

Posted
Posted

Well it looks like an excellent go there! As you've noticed, most sources on staff dimensions give a lot but not all the info. If you had had the length from bottom pivot to hub you would have been fine- and the hub length dimension can vary quite a lot.

 

If anything, I think the pivot on the left (top pivot) looks just right, the lower one is a bit long. Great work though.

  • Thanks 1
LittleWatchShop Distinguished Member

LittleWatchShop

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)
On 8/21/2022 at 10:46 AM, nickelsilver said:

If anything, I think the pivot on the left (top pivot) looks just right, the lower one is a bit long.

Confirmed.  It was too long.  I cut it back 10 to 20 microns for a good fit.

Here is a complete update.

I assembled the balance with the roller only.  Removed the pallet fork from the watch.  Then assembled the balance in the movement with balance cock in place and tightened.  Using a puffer, I could make the balance spin very fast and seemed to have a nice gradual spin down.  All looked well.

I reinstalled the pallet fork, and then I added the hairspring and assembled the full balance.  Installed in the watch, it ran...but with low amplitude.  I checked the HS to see that it was not rubbing.  I adjusted the beat (as observed on my oscilloscope).  The balance was not rubbing either.  Just low amplitude.

A little exasperated, so I decided to try something that I had avoided.  Some time back, I had purchased a NOS balance complete but it was not the breguet version, so it has set to the side.  I had never attempted to try this with the breguet HS because the collet had a larger diameter than the staff.  While chatting with my phone buddy, he told me to collapse the collet using a concave punch (taking not of doing this on the end of the collet.  So, I did this with success.  This is a great idea BTW and is now in my bag of tricks.

With the NOS balance and original HS, the watch performed the same.  This, oddly, was comforting because it seemed to imply that my staff was not the problem.

I have observed this thing under high power microscope and I cannot find any HS rubbing on the balance.  The HS appears planar in in a plane parallel to the balance wheel plane.  I do not see the balance rubbing against anything either.

I don't have a good feel for end shake and side shake, but I did tested it.  Seems a little much but I don't know.  The behavior of the watch is pretty much the same regardless of position.

One other thing I did...I landed a Cyma 573 on ebay (mine is a 571) and I took the MS barrel (with MS) and put it in the 571 in case the MS was just week.  This did not seem to make a difference.  I also disassembled the train wheels and looked for issues...nothing found.

Here is a slo mo just for grins.  Not enough magnification to tell anything...but this forum loves pictures.

Edited by LittleWatchShop
LittleWatchShop Distinguished Member

LittleWatchShop

Posted
  • Author
Posted
3 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Are you sure the hairprings match balances?  

Escapement might need adujutment.

Lol...this journey started in April. I checked my ebay purchases today to address this very question. I think it is the HS for this watch. I love this path I am on in spite of the pain!

  • 1 month later...
LittleWatchShop Distinguished Member

LittleWatchShop

Posted
  • Author
Posted

This watch continues to prove that I am a rank amateur.

It has been acting up, so I dove back in to figure this out.  Lots of details I will not go into, suffice it to say, (as noted above) I made a new staff, and retrofit a hairspring and roller table.

It was going crazy slow and I started investigating the pallet fork horns perhaps hitting the roller table which led me to the pallet fork itself and the pallet fork plate. 

I noticed a lot of side shake on the pivot, so I measured the hole and compared it with a donor watch and found about 40um difference I think (measured it but didnt write it down).

I show the two plates here.  Wondering if I should close it a bit by staking.

This picture really does not illustrate the difference but everybody loves pictures.

Notice the different color of the plates.  I think someone filed down the one on the left exposing bare brass.

2102270472_2022-10-1819_31_02-20221018_192908.jpg-Photos.png.590931f6ae9dee370db93e413fb12deb.png

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
 Share
Go to topic listing


  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Mark
      No images showing

      By Mark · Posted

      Hi guys. @VWatchie Those images are self hosted (not hosted on this server). Do a look at the page source and you will see this. I’m afraid, I can’t have control or backup images not hosted on this server. ( They seem to be served from here: https://qehvsw.bn.files.1drv.com/) This server is backed up fully every night and the database is backed up and versioned every hour, all stored off site on Amazon S1 platform. It’s hard for us to lose data. Ive got a huge overhead of space on this particular server the site is served from so no worries there 🙂 Sorry all for lack of response so far, I have been extremely busy and am embarrassed to say that priorities had to be set in place for a while.  Be assured that i’ve got constant monitoring and alerts should the site be in an extended problematic state (down etc) and work on these issues if they arise.
    • way2wyrd
      No images showing

      By way2wyrd · Posted

      Web sites are cheap. Message board are easy. Hosting both is less than 100 usd a year and small advertising would cover most of that.  In the discord group we did some 15 min poc and threw up a couple of different message boards on a domain i host.   The real value is the data / information / hive mind While I'm a rank amateur in watch repair the information and assistance on this board is invaluable. The members on here are friendly, entertaining and a wealth of knowledge This is what needs to be preserved  --Jeff
    • ChrisInOz
      No images showing

      By ChrisInOz · Posted

      The post below contains the link. If you don't already have a discord account it will take you to the registration screen.  Registration is free.   https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/31653-mark/?do=findComment&comment=279066
    • luiazazrambo
      WWW Eterna sucked me in.

      By luiazazrambo · Posted

      HWGIKE#57 Valex FEF 190 15 jewels Swiss lever full service and repair This one was waiting for a balance staff replacement in my cabinet parts and case cleaned up with a new balance staff and a 4th wheel as the original 4th wheel had a broken pivot for the off center second hand. I never attempted a balance staff replacement before however I received a Bergeon Molfres (i was hunting it for about 2 years) and with the help of it I managed to remove the old staff and riveted the new one in. It also received a new MS, crystal and the hole for the MS arbor was also tightened. With the new MS now it has an acceptable performance meaning that the amplitude goes up to 280 fully wound, has an acceptable beat error and I have the two nice lines but only dial up, dial down is not as nice and I could not figure out as why. I have the two lines but the amplitude is dropping to around 230 and the lines are a bit hairy. Both dial up and dial down the lines just go up and down without seemingly any pattern. I cleaned the movement two times, and then a 3rd time pegged out the main plate and train bridge holes but made no change. Both the HS collet and the roller table was too lose on the new staff... I did not count how many times I took the balance cock off to sort out the HS collet, the roller table and the beat error, somebody before me also shortened the HS by pushing it out a bit and it seems every time somebody is messing with the end of the HS the protruding bit is most of the time twisted bent etc. This one was probably one of the most challenging repair and service. I might take the new MS out and clean it lubricate it as I just pushed the new one in to the barrel from the retaining ring. Plus started to re-read the theory of the escapement and how to analyse the graph on the timing machine: Greiner Chronografic Record manual. I am also thinking to put the watch on a 24 hour long run with the eTimer SW it once helped me to figure out what was wrong with a watch. There is an interesting part of the Greiner record manual talking about the pallets and the end shake of the balance and pallet staff. Maybe this is my issue? Who could that possibly identify? After a few years now I am still without a clue how could watchmakers make parts I can only see with my microscope or how could/can they carry out complicated services impossible to do.. real magic..... .... ..... before I sent this post while the pics were uploading I had an idea, i was browsing the possible outcomes on the timing machine I had one for magnetism..... so I demagnetized the movement and it is not hairy now.... two really nice lines 0.2 ms beat error still a bit wavy, but a lot lot better..... argh....  
    • Nucejoe
      Hello from Cypress, CA

      By Nucejoe · Posted

      Hi there, welcome here.  
×
×
  • Create New...