Seiko 5606 and Omega 625

[suomaf]

So the other day I was messing around with my 1975 Seiko 5606 Lordmatic and did something stupid when trying to regulate it. Not quite sure what I did as it will not deviate from 4.0 ms beat error no matter what I do. Any adjustments will only affect the ms per day. Anyway so I decided to strip it, clean and try to put it together again. So while doing that, the setting wheel level spring part number 812560 pinged off into the void. I found a pack of 5 on cousinsuk and got freaked out by the trustpilot reviews and backed off.

 

Is there anyway I can make the spring myself using some guitar wire? If so, is there any videos or literature I can look up on how to do it?

 

While stripping the movement, I would love to replace the mainspring too, can anyone suggest a place where I can get the mainspring part number 401560 and hopefully be able to pick up 2 mainsprings for Omega 625 1208 caliber at the same place. 

Thank you for helping out a noob

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by suomaf
spelling

[Kalanag]

Cousins offers a genuine and a generic mainspring for this movement. Give it a try! I‘m happy with Cousins…

[tomh207]

Another vote for cousinsuk, not had a problem in a year using them from £1.99 purchases to £500+

[suomaf]

Thanks guys. I live in Asia so the logistics will be a little convoluted but since you guys have used cousins, I am going to go for it. would anyone know how I would go about getting the measurements of the generic mainspring?

 

[Nucejoe]

4 hours ago, suomaf said:

 Not quite sure what I did as it will not deviate from 4.0 ms beat error no matter what I do. 

You might have moved the beat adjustor arm. 

 

[canthus]

Second Nucejoe.  Had several movements including Seiko in that the beat adjuster arm moved with the regulator arm and often stayed off beat when the regulator was moved back. May need to hold beat adjuster arm whilst you move regulator arm.  I would put the regulator at mid point and hold in place whilst adjusting the beat error, then re-adjust the regulator if required.

Edited May 10, 2022 by canthus

[suomaf]

So I had moved this bit all the way to the left and the beat error went all the way up to 4ms. Then when I moved it back, it no longer changed. I thought that perhaps the screw holding the hair spring had come loose  and so I louped up and checked, it seem still to be attached. I think the both arms do move independently. That is when I decided to take everything apart and lost the setting wheel level spring to the void. 

 

I did some macro photos of the balance and hair spring. Maybe it did slip and I was wrong initially. Do I have to put hair spring further back in?

 

 

[Nucejoe]

 The arm you show in 2nd pic is beat adjustor, if beat error stays the same dispite moving this arm, then your tg might not have shown the facts. 

Test your tg with another watch ( accurate watch ) 

How do you clean the balance & cock assembly? 

[Kalanag]

Moving the adjuster arm without affecting the beat error is impossible imho. So the timegrapher might have a problem. I would check the beat symmetry visually and with the help of a slo-mo.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Kalanag

[suomaf]

Thanks guys, calling the android app a timegrapher is very generous. I am thinking that when I shoved it to the left, the screw that is holding the hair spring slipped and so now everything is slanted to one side?

 

The app works on all other watches that I am working on. At some point, I will have to save money to get myself a proper timegrapher.

 

 

[Nucejoe]

No reason to adjust the hairspring length to adjust for beat, move the beat adjustor arm. Was beat error less  before you moved things? 

Beat adjustor arm spans up to 90 degrees, do you get the same beat error at any point of it. 

I'd clean the balance & cock assembly  and put it back on the mainplate, to check the coil, it might be fouling itself or sticking it should be flat and level. 

 

[Kalanag]

3 hours ago, suomaf said:

I am thinking that when I shoved it to the left, the screw that is holding the hair spring slipped and so now everything is slanted to one side?

 

I don‘t think so!

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, suomaf said:

Thanks guys, calling the android app a timegrapher is very generous.

one of the problems we have on this discussion group is people using apps with microphones for audio processing but not designed for picking up watch sounds which are not actually sounds at all. Yes we can hear them as sounds with the timing machine picks up the vibration not the sound. The simplistic of all of this is on multiple occasions we've been led astray because the apps are barely adequate. Which becomes frustrating if we can't help somebody who relies on an app when a timing machine is a relatively inexpensive thing that's actually quite necessary.

4 hours ago, suomaf said:

I am thinking that when I shoved it to the left, the screw that is holding the hair spring slipped and so now everything is slanted to one side?

why would the screws slip? The screw holding the study and should be relatively tight if it slipped thing where you taking it out or doing something with it?

than paying the balance wheel the bridge like that isn't really recommended as you can distort the hairspring. As nice as the pictures are of the balance wheel and the bottom side of the balance bridge why don't you give us a view of the balance wheel in the watch. It almost looks like from your pictures of the movement is still in the case? It be really nice to get a sideways view of the balance in the watch which you can't do if it's in the case. That also a view looking straight down on the hairspring once again with the balance and bridge in the watch. Because the ultimate problem is in the watch not out of the watch it's hard to see when it's out of the watch because it's usually better if we can see it in the watch

the coding system won't let me quote what I want to quote sledges snipping out an image. The text that somebody wrote is correct for a whole variety of reasons. The text in the photograph is not right at all. If you listen the stud screw all you can do is have the stud go up and down. If you want to push really hard on the hairspring you will destroy it. You will note that they hairspring is held in with a pin in order to shove it it have to pull the pin out. If you pull the pin out and shove the hairspring is not totally screw up regulation and you might as well get a balance completes.

This is where we come back to balance wheel goes in the watch and you probably have to make the correction of bending the hairspring there although ideally be nice if you practice on some scrap hairsprings first and we really need to see what it looks like in the watch.

 

[Nucejoe]

An off topic point  is that sound doesn't exist out there,   sound is a creation of one's brain and only for the same individual  to sense, we concieve hearing. 

Vibrations are movement of air molecules or some form of movement in other media. 

I am not clear what you mean by slip.  Adjustor arm moves/ slips if you hit the stud screw or move the adjustor arm.  There is no need to loosen the stud screw and do like you say, not for adjusting the beat anyway.

Rgds

 

 

[canthus]

In your pics the stud is in a fixed arm of the balance cock, and therefore the beat cannot be adjusted by a moveable arm there. The spring is clearly off-centre (but looks concentric and well spaced) and is possibly due to the stud being incorrectly fitted, or the spring has suffered being 'bent' at the stud when handling.  I bit of judicial persuasion of the hairspring at the stud may sort it out.

[Nucejoe]

Its a mobile stud carrier @canthus. 

If OP puts the cock with balance attached back on the mainplate & ( no other part) , he can visually check if impulse jewel comes to stop at midpoint between the banking pins and move the stud carrier ( beat adjustor) to bring the impulse jewel to the midpoint ( in beat). For all we know he might have knocked the roller table loose. 

[Kalanag]

24 minutes ago, canthus said:

In your pics the stud is in a fixed arm of the balance cock…

Are you really sure?

[JohnR725]

28 minutes ago, Kalanag said:

Are you really sure?

 

56 minutes ago, canthus said:

In your pics the stud is in a fixed arm of the balance cock, and therefore the beat cannot be adjusted by a moveable arm there.

I had to look at the picture again and usually on Seiko's there always unless it's a really vintage they can always independently move. But hard to tell to the backside of the picture? So much better way to tell is to look in the parts list that tends to be an absolute.

I've attached part of the parts list image. I'm assuming the original posting person already has a parts list and the service manual where these questions would've been answered? In any case we can see that the balance bridge doesn't have any parts sticking out of it? That's because their separate parts. which I have circled in the image.

This means that typically but typically is a generalization sometimes you can move these independent of each other without moving the other one sometimes moving one moves both. This is where a timing machine a real timing machine is really helpful. It's also where you have to use a lot of patience especially with the beat and you really need to understand how to visually put it in beat because it's so easy to go past zero as there's no plus and minus. The preferred procedure is to put the watch in beat and then regulate.

 

[suomaf]

I am so grateful for you guys helping out a complete noob. I have added the photos that was requested.

I think it spins freely. I think I cannot upload videos so I will put it on youtube? So you guys think I should get a donor movement and use that balance wheel? I am pretty sure I did something wrong to the arm.

 

Thank you again and sorry for being a bother.

 

 

 

[canthus]

OOPs, yes looking closer now I can see it is separate.  Should have gone to s*e*savers!!

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 5/11/2022 at 7:28 PM, Kalanag said:

Are you really sure?

It does look like it is not fixed to the balance cock. So adjustable arm .

[suomaf]

Brief update. I went out and bought some guitar wire and made a few springs. Pinged about 3 of them into the void again but finally got the keyless works back into place. I will try over the weekend to put the rest of the movement back together and see if the whole cleaning and oiling will help

[suomaf]

ok so I have put the train of wheels back together, everything seems fine, but when I put the balance on, it would not go. When I blow on it with a puffer it will go and stop in less than a second. Have I bent the pivots or the hair springs?

Maybe its time for donor movement?

[Nucejoe]

Just saw the vid above, this is most likely  due to lack of end shake or something is binding, 

DO YOU KNOW HOW TO CHECK THE END SHAKE.

Will you also show a side view pic of hairspring the coil could be touching something, a vid of coil as you blow woth puffer helps the most. 

Regs

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, suomaf said:

ok so I have put the train of wheels back together, everything seems fine, but when I put the balance on, it would not go. When I blow on it with a puffer it will go and stop in less than a second. Have I bent the pivots or the hair springs?

Maybe its time for donor movement?

When it does swing does it move the pallet fork back and forth.

1 minute ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

When it does swing does it move the pallet fork back and forth.

Have you checked for power at the escapement before putting in the balance assembly?