Movement holders?

[Malocchio]

Seiko used to make movement specific holders. 6309 tech documents tell to use the same holder as 61 series. The 61 series holder is included in a large box set of holders. I don't know if any holder specifically for 6309 exists. I do have a model S-630 holder that came with a junk lot from Japan but I haven't found any info on it. I guess not too many of them have survived. Tried it quickly with a 6119 and it might be usable. Seiko movements dial up don't fit the adjustable Bergeon too well.

[Neverenoughwatches]

The seller of the movement holder I messaged...replied with the suggestion of me looking up the caliber numbers as they didn't have access to the dimensions.  I already did that 4 hours earlier. Anyways I took a chance and ordered it, I'm convinced I will need to make some more sleeves to fit into the holder to take up the 9-11 ligne slack. I have some light duty scaffold tubing that finishes at 32mm, might be too big...but tubing is just about everywhere you look. I will pop back when the holder arrives to review it and detail what size movements it can hold.  This could be the one...the ultimate movement holder that I've been waiting for .....struggling  to contain my excitement . Now I just need to sell the other 73 holders I've collected

[tomh207]

I think the perfect ever movement holder would have to be something based on a fractal vise

 

Tom

[Neverenoughwatches]

Just now, tomh207 said:

I think the perfect ever movement holder would have to be something based on a fractal vise

 

Tom

Now you're talking Tom....What you're talking I don't actually know. I could have just googled it and come back with a clever answer that makes me look really smart......but you already know that Tom

1 hour ago, Malocchio said:

Seiko used to make movement specific holders. 6309 tech documents tell to use the same holder as 61 series. The 61 series holder is included in a large box set of holders. I don't know if any holder specifically for 6309 exists. I do have a model S-630 holder that came with a junk lot from Japan but I haven't found any info on it. I guess not too many of them have survived. Tried it quickly with a 6119 and it might be usable. Seiko movements dial up don't fit the adjustable Bergeon too well.

I don't work on Seiko Evil Eye, is that because the plates are beveled and dont fit the movement steps ?

[tomh207]

@Neverenoughwatches well Rich, a fractal vise will secure irregular shaped objects so would work for round, lozenge, rectangular or square or indeed any shaped movement.

here’s a cheap Chinese one

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005007311407756.html?src=google&pdp_npi=4%40dis!GBP!1008.79!1008.79!!!!!%40!12000040203039608!ppc!!!&src=google&albch=shopping&acnt=494-037-6276&isdl=y&slnk=&plac=&mtctp=&albbt=Google_7_shopping&aff_platform=google&aff_short_key=UneMJZVf&gclsrc=aw.ds&&albagn=888888&&ds_e_adid=&ds_e_matchtype=&ds_e_device=c&ds_e_network=x&ds_e_product_group_id=&ds_e_product_id=en1005007311407756&ds_e_product_merchant_id=5381571723&ds_e_product_country=GB&ds_e_product_language=en&ds_e_product_channel=online&ds_e_product_store_id=&ds_url_v=2&albcp=17859500389&albag=&isSmbAutoCall=false&needSmbHouyi=false&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADznYb8gNiAzwrm0muFG_0J95HDjQ&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1Y7dkeSYiwMVqJRQBh2oOjNqEAQYASABEgKvJfD_BwE

for what we would want it would need someone like @nickelsilver or @nevenbekriev to make it.

 

Tom

[caseback]

11 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

@Neverenoughwatches well Rich, a fractal vise will secure irregular shaped objects so would work for round, lozenge, rectangular or square or indeed any shaped movement.

here’s a cheap Chinese one

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005007311407756.html?src=google&pdp_npi=4%40dis!GBP!1008.79!1008.79!!!!!%40!12000040203039608!ppc!!!&src=google&albch=shopping&acnt=494-037-6276&isdl=y&slnk=&plac=&mtctp=&albbt=Google_7_shopping&aff_platform=google&aff_short_key=UneMJZVf&gclsrc=aw.ds&&albagn=888888&&ds_e_adid=&ds_e_matchtype=&ds_e_device=c&ds_e_network=x&ds_e_product_group_id=&ds_e_product_id=en1005007311407756&ds_e_product_merchant_id=5381571723&ds_e_product_country=GB&ds_e_product_language=en&ds_e_product_channel=online&ds_e_product_store_id=&ds_url_v=2&albcp=17859500389&albag=&isSmbAutoCall=false&needSmbHouyi=false&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADznYb8gNiAzwrm0muFG_0J95HDjQ&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1Y7dkeSYiwMVqJRQBh2oOjNqEAQYASABEgKvJfD_BwE

for what we would want it would need someone like @nickelsilver or @nevenbekriev to make it.

 

Tom

Wow, making that would be a nice project. Totally overkill...but nice!

Edited January 28 by caseback

[tomh207]

3 minutes ago, caseback said:

Wow, making that would be a nice project. Totally overkill...but nice!

It would be the JLC or Patek of movement holders, and just as pricey to buy. If you go that far though it would also need anglage and perlage or Geneva stripes

Tom

[Neverenoughwatches]

48 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

@Neverenoughwatches well Rich, a fractal vise will secure irregular shaped objects so would work for round, lozenge, rectangular or square or indeed any shaped movement.

here’s a cheap Chinese one

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005007311407756.html?src=google&pdp_npi=4%40dis!GBP!1008.79!1008.79!!!!!%40!12000040203039608!ppc!!!&src=google&albch=shopping&acnt=494-037-6276&isdl=y&slnk=&plac=&mtctp=&albbt=Google_7_shopping&aff_platform=google&aff_short_key=UneMJZVf&gclsrc=aw.ds&&albagn=888888&&ds_e_adid=&ds_e_matchtype=&ds_e_device=c&ds_e_network=x&ds_e_product_group_id=&ds_e_product_id=en1005007311407756&ds_e_product_merchant_id=5381571723&ds_e_product_country=GB&ds_e_product_language=en&ds_e_product_channel=online&ds_e_product_store_id=&ds_url_v=2&albcp=17859500389&albag=&isSmbAutoCall=false&needSmbHouyi=false&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADznYb8gNiAzwrm0muFG_0J95HDjQ&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1Y7dkeSYiwMVqJRQBh2oOjNqEAQYASABEgKvJfD_BwE

for what we would want it would need someone like @nickelsilver or @nevenbekriev to make it.

 

Tom

I found one Tom , I'm just not putting my banana in it, save that for the Hull backstreet parlours

[tomh207]

The really, really scary bit Rich is, since I started this part of the conversation I think I might have figured out a way to make it

 

Tom

[Neverenoughwatches]

17 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

The really, really scary bit Rich is, since I started this part of the conversation I think I might have figured out a way to make it

 

Tom

Ffs Tom dont tell @AndyGSi, he'll  have a patent slapped on it the second you post up a drawing of it.

@RichardHarris123

[SwissSeiko]

fractal vises are very cool. The only issue I see, is how to maintain a level height when you place the movement in the vise, unless you limited the height of the jaws. Pretty difficult to included a lip for the movement to sit on, as that would defeat the point of the fractal, which uses the entire face surface to make good contact. I think it would be cheaper and easier to just get a 3D printed and make your own holders that way. I've done that before for a 1570 Rolex movement. Wasn't totally necessary, but worked well. I Would prefer the type @Neverenoughwatches posted a few pages back. Round, with a clamping action. I use both the metal and plastic Bergeon holders, but prefer the plastic ones now. I don't like metal touching the movement. I even printed all new cleaning baskets for my machine so they are plastic as well. 

[tomh207]

2 minutes ago, SwissSeiko said:

fractal vises are very cool. The only issue I see, is how to maintain a level height when you place the movement in the vise, unless you limited the height of the jaws. Pretty difficult to included a lip for the movement to sit on, as that would defeat the point of the fractal, which uses the entire face surface to make good contact. I think it would be cheaper and easier to just get a 3D printed and make your own holders that way. I've done that before for a 1570 Rolex movement. Wasn't totally necessary, but worked well. I Would prefer the type @Neverenoughwatches posted a few pages back. Round, with a clamping action. I use both the metal and plastic Bergeon holders, but prefer the plastic ones now. I don't like metal touching the movement. I even printed all new cleaning baskets for my machine so they are plastic as well. 

Oh but I have a plan m’lord, a very cunning plan, so cunning that you could put a tail on it and call it a fox!

 

patent pending fractal movement holder coming sometime in the future if I can get another “round tuit”

 

Tom

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 minutes ago, SwissSeiko said:

fractal vises are very cool. The only issue I see, is how to maintain a level height when you place the movement in the vise, unless you limited the height of the jaws. Pretty difficult to included a lip for the movement to sit on, as that would defeat the point of the fractal, which uses the entire face surface to make good contact. I think it would be cheaper and easier to just get a 3D printed and make your own holders that way. I've done that before for a 1570 Rolex movement. Wasn't totally necessary, but worked well. I Would prefer the type @Neverenoughwatches posted a few pages back. Round, with a clamping action. I use both the metal and plastic Bergeon holders, but prefer the plastic ones now. I don't like metal touching the movement. I even printed all new cleaning baskets for my machine so they are plastic as well. 

I keep thinking about what might leach into the cleaning and rinsing fluids with plastic, I stop using plastic, it preyed on my mind too much. Would I know if the plastic did leach and by how much over time

6 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

Oh but I have a plan m’lord, a very cunning plan, so cunning that you could put a tail on it and call it a fox!

 

patent pending fractal movement holder coming sometime in the future if I can get another “round tuit”

 

Tom

I'll send you one buddy....get yer laughing gear around this. 

[SwissSeiko]

16 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

Oh but I have a plan m’lord, a very cunning plan, so cunning that you could put a tail on it and call it a fox!

 

patent pending fractal movement holder coming sometime in the future if I can get another “round tuit”

 

Tom

Wait, have I been Knighted now? Please contact me for shipping information on my sword. I can feel the power already.

14 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I keep thinking about what might leach into the cleaning and rinsing fluids with plastic, I stop using plastic, it preyed on my mind too much. Would I know if the plastic did leach and by how much over time

I do enough that its swapped out on a regular basis. I'm not worried about it.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 minutes ago, SwissSeiko said:

Wait, have I been Knighted now? Please contact me for shipping information on my sword. I can feel the power already.

ahha young sir ....another to joust banter with, you shall from this day forward be known as Lance.

[tomh207]

Lord and knight are not the same.

search for “blackadder” on YouTube, enjoy

 

Tom

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

Lord and knight are not the same.

search for “blackadder” on YouTube, enjoy

 

Tom

That has be one of my all time favourite comedies. How Atkinson can go from Blackadder to Mr. Bean is crazy

[AndyGSi]

45 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

Oh but I have a plan m’lord, a very cunning plan, so cunning that you could put a tail on it and call it a fox!

 

patent pending fractal movement holder coming sometime in the future if I can get another “round tuit”

 

Tom

Here you go.

[Malocchio]

On 1/28/2025 at 5:48 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

I don't work on Seiko Evil Eye, is that because the plates are beveled and dont fit the movement steps ?

They're not beveled but kind of irregularly stepped so that they cannot sit level on a symmetrical holder like the Bergeon. You tighten the holder and the movement wants to pop up. Dial down they do sit level.

[Neverenoughwatches]

Update on that movement holder. The case inside diameter is 30mm, the rings hold 30.4mm ,29.8mm, 28.6mm,25.8mm, 25.6mm,19.8mm and 17.6mm. So that is 13.5 linge, 13L,12.75L,11.5L,11.25,8.75Land 7.75L. There is 2 - 3 tenths mm reduction on the bigger rings when cranking down on the tightening screw , i wouldn't overdo it though. That leaves a few gaps in the 11L and 12L range and all the 9L and 10L range is missing, so some lathework needed there to fill  those gaps in or some clever ingenuity. Wonder why the manufacturer doesn't make some generic sizes, extra steps in the rings and using both ends of the plain rings, they'd sell a lot more.

[Neverenoughwatches]

Eyup watch folk, hope everyone is well. Some reflection on this movement holder. For the price reasonably well made -ish-,  not super finished, but for 30 odd quid why would it be. Downside is the amount of specific sizes that it can hold, just not enough.  I was hoping that the adjustment of the split ring sleeves that fit into the clamp would compensate for the lack of range between them, but tightening up the sleeves will only make reduction adjustments of 0.3mm maximum, for that you really need to crank down on the clamp screw,so not a good idea. Since Movement diameters are incremental in quarters of lignes which equates to approx 0.5mm, then a ring is needed for each diameter.  Ignoring 8 and 13 ligne movements as two of the rings cover the 13 ligne range that leaves 16 sleeves need making less 3 that are that are already supplied. Thoughts as what materials to use to make these anyone bearing in mind that the ring outer diameters are just short of 30mm to fit inside the clamp. 30mm and 28mm mild steel tube are readily available with 2, 3 and 5mm walling, the tube wall thicknesses give good scope for cutting in the steps. A biggish lathe will be required to hold and turn 30mm tube. Other ideas anyone besides 3D printing ? 

[tomh207]

53 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Eyup watch folk, hope everyone is well. Some reflection on this movement holder. For the price reasonably well made -ish-,  not super finished, but for 30 odd quid why would it be. Downside is the amount of specific sizes that it can hold, just not enough.  I was hoping that the adjustment of the split ring sleeves that fit into the clamp would compensate for the lack of range between them, but tightening up the sleeves will only make reduction adjustments of 0.3mm maximum, for that you really need to crank down on the clamp screw,so not a good idea. Since Movement diameters are incremental in quarters of lignes which equates to approx 0.5mm, then a ring is needed for each diameter.  Ignoring 8 and 13 ligne movements as two of the rings cover the 13 ligne range that leaves 16 sleeves need making less 3 that are that are already supplied. Thoughts as what materials to use to make these anyone bearing in mind that the ring outer diameters are just short of 30mm to fit inside the clamp. 30mm and 28mm mild steel tube are readily available with 2, 3 and 5mm walling, the tube wall thicknesses give good scope for cutting in the steps. A biggish lathe will be required to hold and turn 30mm tube. Other ideas anyone besides 3D printing ? 

Not so much to make rings for these Rich but more about making movement holders. I have thought about using something like this as a material to make them.

https://www.thecakedecoratingcompany.co.uk/the-cake-decorating-co-20-inch-non-stick-polyethylene-rolling-pin-p737

bound to be cheaper blanks on Aliexpress and you would need a lathe big enough to do it. I am pretty sure I have seen these rolling pins in pound shops very cheap.

 

Tom

[AndyGSi]

How thick are you looking?

Could they be laser cut as rings and stuck together?

[Neverenoughwatches]

34 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

Not so much to make rings for these Rich but more about making movement holders. I have thought about using something like this as a material to make them.

https://www.thecakedecoratingcompany.co.uk/the-cake-decorating-co-20-inch-non-stick-polyethylene-rolling-pin-p737

bound to be cheaper blanks on Aliexpress and you would need a lathe big enough to do it. I am pretty sure I have seen these rolling pins in pound shops very cheap.

 

Tom

Thats not a bad idea Tom. I had the thought of using plumbing waste pipe at one point, but doubted its strength.  Starting with a solid blank sounds interesting Tom.

24 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

How thick are you looking?

Could they be laser cut as rings and stuck together?

Originally I had the idea of using sections of scaffold tubing for making the rings. The Revolving case that forms the ring clamp has an inner diameter of 30mm.  I found a supplier of 30mm steel tube that has a 5mm wall, enough to cut all the steps to hold a big range of movements.  The 5mm wall might have too much strength that the ring may not tighten up to grip the movement.  If I understand you correctly Andy...a series of rings...like one big laminated ring...might have the same problem of so much strength that they wont clamp up to hold a movement. 

Back to Tom's idea , i wondered how timber rings would fare ? The reasons I like these holders ...very stable, holds the movement secure and clamps the whole perimeter of it. The thin steps don't interfere with any part of the movement...as some generic holders with deep steps sometimes do.

[tomh207]

@Neverenoughwatches I think timber would be as good as most things as long as it’s dense enough. Time to dig out your stash of magnum litvae or Madagascar ebony .  Probably cheaper making them with silver bullion these days though

I think though anything that is soft enough not to marr the movement but resilient enough to stand up to regular use would work Rich.

 

Tom