Setting lever spring

[Nucejoe]

 Neverenough,

I meant , original spring break too,  thats all they do.

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 Neverenough,

I meant , original spring break too,  thats all they do.

 

 

Gotcha, i thought you were questioning.

[Neverenoughwatches]

Attempt 3 hopefully this will work with the cs 100 steel. Easy to drill compared to the feeler gauge steel, the cheap carbide bits work very well when they are spinning fast. The last picture is when it usually breaks where the jumper starts .

[nevenbekriev]

Hi Rich, now i realise that you spring broke. how did it broke, may be when grinding the fixator part with the dremel? If so, then guess You have let it to vibrate free, this is wrong. One must keep the spring pressed with finger to boost the vibrations, other vice it resonates and breaks.

Edited April 24, 2024 by nevenbekriev

[Neverenoughwatches]

53 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

Hi Rich, now i realise that you spring broke. how did it broke, may be when grinding the fixator part with the dremel? If so, then guess You have let it to vibrate free, this is wrong. One must keep the spring pressed with finger to boost the vibrations, other vice it resonates and breaks.

The first broke while i was using a dremel to shape the jumper spring at the join, i guess you call it the fixator, the disk grapped hold and flicked it off . The second time same place but while i was filing.  This steel feels more malleable, it is annealed steel. Working out the detent on the jumper is a real. pain in the butt.

[RichardHarris123]

Could you glue two pieces together for rigidity and separate after forming? 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Could you glue two pieces together for rigidity and separate after forming? 

I'm not with you there Rich .

[RichardHarris123]

If the metal was twice as thick, it wouldn't snap so easily.  The thickness is governed by the space available so you can't use thicker metal.  If you glued two pieces together, the likelihood of snapping would be reduced.  That's my theory anyway, could be wrong. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

If the metal was twice as thick, it wouldn't snap so easily.  The thickness is governed by the space available so you can't use thicker metal.  If you glued two pieces together, the likelihood of snapping would be reduced.  That's my theory anyway, could be wrong. 

No problem with this steel breaking its a perfect working material,  the difficult bit is figuring out where to put the detent on the spring.

Yessss, at last not a watchmaker but a part maker. Its not perfect, i made 2 mistakes . I made a guess where to put the detent on the spring and i made it a bit too deep and the other was the drill bit caught a wobble on when i tried to open up the post hole 2 tenths. But it works perfectly with a solid click on crown set position so I'm well chuffed. Not sure what to do about harden and tempering it, seems to have a good spring action in its annealed state, do i leave it as is ?

[mikepilk]

8 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Not sure what to do about harden and tempering it, seems to have a good spring action in its annealed state, do i leave it as is ?

I would harden and temper (to a light blue). It's so easy to do and only takes a couple of minutes.

A search on ebay UK for "spring steel strip cs" finds plenty available in small quantites and thicknesses from 0.1mm up. 

But the question is ( @nickelsilver) which "CS" number is best for watch parts ? 
Also, from one of the ads : "CARBON SPRING STEEL. SIZE IS METRIC 15.00mm X 0.10mm X 304 MM  CS100 FINISH BRIGHT . HARDENED AND TEMPERD TO 480-530VPN"

I've no idea about 480-530VPN. Does that mean it needs annealing before working?

 

 

 

9 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

No problem with this steel breaking its a perfect working material,  the difficult bit is figuring out where to put the detent on the spring.

Have you seen this video, he shows how to determine where the indents go ?

 

Edited April 25, 2024 by mikepilk

[Neverenoughwatches]

26 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I would harden and temper (to a light blue). It's so easy to do and only takes a couple of minutes.

A search on ebay UK for "spring steel strip cs" finds plenty available in small quantites and thicknesses from 0.1mm up. 

But the question is ( @nickelsilver) which "CS" number is best for watch parts ? 
Also, from one of the ads : "CARBON SPRING STEEL. SIZE IS METRIC 15.00mm X 0.10mm X 304 MM  CS100 FINISH BRIGHT . HARDENED AND TEMPERD TO 480-530VPN"

I've no idea about 480-530VPN. Does that mean it needs annealing before working?

 

 

 

As an experiment i was thinking of not hardening it to see how it fairs. Now that i have a complete template i could knock up another in half the time if this loses its elasticity. I might play about with a few pieces today to test their bending and spring properties. This was cs 100 the supplier quoted in annealed state, it was nice to work with files so I'm taking it thats its state. What you are looking seems like it would need annealing to work it. This is why i went for this stuff that cuts out that process, it was so easy to work.

[nickelsilver]

44 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I would harden and temper (to a light blue). It's so easy to do and only takes a couple of minutes.

A search on ebay UK for "spring steel strip cs" finds plenty available in small quantites and thicknesses from 0.1mm up. 

But the question is ( @nickelsilver) which "CS" number is best for watch parts ? 
Also, from one of the ads : "CARBON SPRING STEEL. SIZE IS METRIC 15.00mm X 0.10mm X 304 MM  CS100 FINISH BRIGHT . HARDENED AND TEMPERD TO 480-530VPN"

I've no idea about 480-530VPN. Does that mean it needs annealing before working?

 

 

I found this from a while back

CS100 seems fine, but at around 500 Vickers it's not quite as hard as "blue" steel, but still harder than annealed. I'd try to find annealed (the post above has a U.K. supplier of small quantities).

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

I found this from a while back

CS100 seems fine, but at around 500 Vickers it's not quite as hard as "blue" steel, but still harder than annealed. I'd try to find annealed (the post above has a U.K. supplier of small quantities).

This set lever seems to working ok unhardened Nickelsilver, might it deform if i leave it that way ?

6 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

I found this from a while back

CS100 seems fine, but at around 500 Vickers it's not quite as hard as "blue" steel, but still harder than annealed. I'd try to find annealed (the post above has a U.K. supplier of small quantities).

I tried that method of annealing, it wasn't great but i was using unknown steel quality, old imperial feeler gauges. 

[mikepilk]

9 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

I found this from a while back

CS100 seems fine, but at around 500 Vickers it's not quite as hard as "blue" steel, but still harder than annealed. I'd try to find annealed (the post above has a U.K. supplier of small quantities).

This is the link to the supplier https://springsteelstock.co.uk/cs70-c67s-carbon-steel/

[Neverenoughwatches]

55 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I would harden and temper (to a light blue). It's so easy to do and only takes a couple of minutes.

A search on ebay UK for "spring steel strip cs" finds plenty available in small quantites and thicknesses from 0.1mm up. 

But the question is ( @nickelsilver) which "CS" number is best for watch parts ? 
Also, from one of the ads : "CARBON SPRING STEEL. SIZE IS METRIC 15.00mm X 0.10mm X 304 MM  CS100 FINISH BRIGHT . HARDENED AND TEMPERD TO 480-530VPN"

I've no idea about 480-530VPN. Does that mean it needs annealing before working?

 

 

 

Mike if you wanna drop me your address I'll send you a strip of this cs 100 in an envelope . I'd like your opinion of its workability 

1 minute ago, mikepilk said:

This is the link to the supplier https://springsteelstock.co.uk/cs70-c67s-carbon-steel/

The cs100 might be better carbon is 1%

[mikepilk]

7 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The cs100 might be better carbon is 1%

The CS70 is the only one they show as annealed. 

A further search on ebay, I found CS75 and CS100 annealed carbon steel strips  e.g. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314072784422

[nickelsilver]

22 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

This set lever seems to working ok unhardened Nickelsilver, might it deform if i leave it that way ?

I tried that method of annealing, it wasn't great but i was using unknown steel quality, old imperial feeler gauges. 

Steel has some funny properties, or at least counterintuitive. The modulus of elasticity is effectively (not exactly, but close enough) the same for steel that is annealed and hardened. What changes is the point of plastic deformation* . If the movement of your spring doesn't pass that, it should work fine. It looks a little thick, I would thin it a bit maybe from the main body out about halfway, maybe 10-20% thinner (not in thickness, along its form). But if it works it works!

 

*So- if you have two bars of the same steel, one annealed, one at 600 Vickers (general hardness watch arbors might be), clamp them to a table so the same length is hanging out, and put a weight on the ends, they will bend the same amount. But if you continue to add weight, then remove it, at a point the annealed bar won't return to its original straightness. That's the point of plastic deformation. But up to that point, as springs, they are the same. However- their wear characteristics will be very very different. And getting the hardened bar past its point of plastic deformation takes a lot more effort.

Edited April 25, 2024 by nickelsilver

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

I would harden and temper (to a light blue). It's so easy to do and only takes a couple of minutes.

A search on ebay UK for "spring steel strip cs" finds plenty available in small quantites and thicknesses from 0.1mm up. 

But the question is ( @nickelsilver) which "CS" number is best for watch parts ? 
Also, from one of the ads : "CARBON SPRING STEEL. SIZE IS METRIC 15.00mm X 0.10mm X 304 MM  CS100 FINISH BRIGHT . HARDENED AND TEMPERD TO 480-530VPN"

I've no idea about 480-530VPN. Does that mean it needs annealing before working?

 

 

 

Have you seen this video, he shows how to determine where the indents go ?

 

Yeah ive watched that a few times before,  i couldnt find my old school dividers to scribe it up

35 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

The CS70 is the only one they show as annealed. 

A further search on ebay, I found CS75 and CS100 annealed carbon steel strips  e.g. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314072784422

Yep thats the guy i bought a roll from .

33 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

Steel has some funny properties, or at least counterintuitive. The modulus of elasticity is effectively (not exactly, but close enough) the same for steel that is annealed and hardened. What changes is the point of plastic deformation* . If the movement of your spring doesn't pass that, it should work fine. It looks a little thick, I would thin it a bit maybe from the main body out about halfway, maybe 10-20% thinner (not in thickness, along its form). But if it works it works!

 

*So- if you have two bars of the same steel, one annealed, one at 600 Vickers (general hardness watch arbors might be), clamp them to a table so the same length is hanging out, and put a weight on the ends, they will bend the same amount. But if you continue to add weight, then remove it, at a point the annealed bar won't return to its original straightness. That's the point of plastic deformation. But up to that point, as springs, they are the same. However- their wear characteristics will be very very different. And getting the hardened bar past its point of plastic deformation takes a lot more effort.

Thanks Nicklesilver that answers that perfectly and more or less what i thought an experiment over time would prove . The jumper arm is quite thick along its length, i left it that way intentionally, i thought the original was probably very thin, i didnt see that it was already missing. Setting isn't particularly stiff as such just positive, i still need to take it out and polish where it mates with the stem release. 

Edited April 25, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches

[Klassiker]

5 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

polish where it mates with the stem release

Polish it where the old part cracked as well. Get rid of the stress-raisers.

[Neverenoughwatches]

54 minutes ago, Klassiker said:

Polish it where the old part cracked as well. Get rid of the stress-raisers.

Thanks Steven not something i had thought about, that might even work harden any stress points.

[mikepilk]

The one thing I took time over was to round and polish the curves at the bottom of the jumper arm. The slightest mark (left over from cutting of filing) acts as a stress raiser, just where you don't need it. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

14 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

The one thing I took time over was to round and polish the curves at the bottom of the jumper arm. The slightest mark (left over from cutting of filing) acts as a stress raiser, just where you don't need it. 

Why just the bottom mike ? Is it worth polishing the whole arm ?

[mikepilk]

28 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Why just the bottom mike ? Is it worth polishing the whole arm ?

The stress is the force (on the spring) x distance. The maximum stress is at the bottom, and decreases up the arm. That's why they always break at the bottom. I used a round file, then something like 2000 grit to finish. I gave the rest of the arm a quick polish - no need for a perfect finish. Just make sure there are no 'notches' left from cutting/filing. The notches act like the perforations in your toilet paper 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

The stress is the force (on the spring) x distance. The maximum stress is at the bottom, and decreases up the arm. That's why they always break at the bottom. I used a round file, then something like 2000 grit to finish. I gave the rest of the arm a quick polish - no need for a perfect finish. Just make sure there are no 'notches' left from cutting/filing. The notches act like the perforations in your toilet paper 

Ah ok yes that makes sense to polish it where the arm starts to form from the body of the bridge, i thought you meant the underneath of all the arm.

[RichardHarris123]

I'm assuming that every time you set the watch you are work hardening the detent spring, maximum hardening is  where it meets the plate due to maximum deflection.   That's why it snaps there.  The Young's modulus may be the same but after it's reached its maximum yeid strength it breaks.  My mechanic engineering is very rusty, correct me if I'm wrong.