Amplitide all over the place

[54chevy]

First off let specify the watch.  Seiko 6139-7100.  

Just cleaned it, inspected it, reassembled and oiled.  Put it on the timegrapher and im getting 300 degrees of amplitude with .6 ms beat error dial side up.  Ive not seen a seiko get that high in amplitude so makes me think something is significantly off.  1st pic

 

Move it to dial side down and and amplitude drops significantly but improved beat error.  ( this amplitude was in the realm of what I was expecting given the age and wear of this watch) 2nd pic

 

Put the watch in a vertical position with crown pointing down and balance vertical at 12 o'clock position.  Amplitude improves but beat error goes to hell.  3rd pic

Trying to find some decent discussion topics on this.   Should I be looking for worn pivots or jewels.   New to the diagnostic game but past tinkering in other hobbies tells me the rotation of a shaft is not running true somewhere in the gear train.  

Thoughts?   

If this is more advanced for the newbie section please move it to the appropriate area or if a topic does exist and I just can't find it please link it here for me. 

Edited September 18, 2022 by 54chevy

[grsnovi]

I would have put this in the 

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/forum/64-regulation-watch-performance-and-timing-machine-timegrapher-readingsresults/

I'll ask Mark to move it.

Did you put it on your Timegrapher before you serviced it?

Is it possible the movement has been magnetized?

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, 54chevy said:

Put it on the timegrapher and im getting 300 degrees of amplitude with .6 ms beat error dial side up.  Ive not seen a seiko get that high in amplitude so makes me think something is significantly off.  1st pic

one of the things you have be very careful about is looking at everything. When it's supposedly doing 337° does it visually really look like it's doing the 337°? 

one of the problems with timing machines if the amplitude is too low the timing machine can read the wrong part of the waveform and give you really happy numbers. If this doesn't just occur on the Chinese machines I've seen witschi machines get fooled for the same reason.

So for instance image attached one watch to timing machines and they were attached to the same watch at the exact same time they should be exactly the same and here's an example of this super low amplitude in this case the witschi is right. But the Chinese machines reading the wrong part of the waveform and look at the happy numbers you're getting.

This is where you also have to visually look at your balance wheel what is it doing is it really look like it's running at 337°?

one of the things that sometimes occurs with super low amplitude is beat error seems to increase. It's basically where you don't worry about beat error until the amplitude is closer to 200° because often times that goes away it's a byproduct of a super low amplitude.

24 minutes ago, grsnovi said:

Did you put it on your Timegrapher before you serviced it?

that's always a question I like to ask in addition to tell us the condition of the watch before you serviced it.

then servicing lubrication escapement we did you use?

 

[54chevy]

2 hours ago, grsnovi said:

I would have put this in the 

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/forum/64-regulation-watch-performance-and-timing-machine-timegrapher-readingsresults/

I'll ask Mark to move it.

Did you put it on your Timegrapher before you serviced it?

Is it possible the movement has been magnetized?

I thought so too and put it on my demagnatizer.  Same results 

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

one of the things you have be very careful about is looking at everything. When it's supposedly doing 337° does it visually really look like it's doing the 337°? 

one of the problems with timing machines if the amplitude is too low the timing machine can read the wrong part of the waveform and give you really happy numbers. If this doesn't just occur on the Chinese machines I've seen witschi machines get fooled for the same reason.

So for instance image attached one watch to timing machines and they were attached to the same watch at the exact same time they should be exactly the same and here's an example of this super low amplitude in this case the witschi is right. But the Chinese machines reading the wrong part of the waveform and look at the happy numbers you're getting.

This is where you also have to visually look at your balance wheel what is it doing is it really look like it's running at 337°?

one of the things that sometimes occurs with super low amplitude is beat error seems to increase. It's basically where you don't worry about beat error until the amplitude is closer to 200° because often times that goes away it's a byproduct of a super low amplitude.

that's always a question I like to ask in addition to tell us the condition of the watch before you serviced it.

then servicing lubrication escapement we did you use?

 

Interesting.  I hadn't thought of the machine reading the wrong end of the wave.  Visually, it definitely was not. Just over 180 when I used the slow motion video feature on my phones camera. Condition of the watch was fair.  It was an ebay buy missing a few parts that I pulled from a donor movement.  The biggest piece being the balance and bridge. 

 

As far as lubricants d5 on barrel arbor and calendar works, 9010 on gear train pivots except escape wheel, hp 1300 on escape wheel pivot, and 9415 on the pallet pins and jewels.  The are alot of conflicting charts out there on what oil where.  Please let me know if I got that wrong.  In total transparency I havent researched this alot.  Just found a chart that seemed legit so went with it.  Can't remember where I got it from. 

 

 

[jdm]

4 hours ago, 54chevy said:

Should I be looking for worn pivots or jewels. 

Yes, but without a ready ample selection of parts to try, a microscope for analysis, etc, you may end up spending a lot if time an money with little results. The mov.t is old and worn out anyway, sometime isn't possible to do better that what it gives. 

Perfect lubrication does not fix a faulty watch and good but not perfect does not make much of a difference especially to said old worn out watches. 

If it performs good on the wrist one should accept as it is in my opinion. OCD is not an asset to beginners. 

 

[54chevy]

1 hour ago, jdm said:

Yes, but without a ready ample selection of parts to try, a microscope for analysis, etc, you may end up spending a lot if time an money with little results. The mov.t is old and worn out anyway, sometime isn't possible to do better that what it gives. 

Perfect lubrication does not fix a faulty watch and good but not perfect does not make much of a difference especially to said old worn out watches. 

If it performs good on the wrist one should accept as it is in my opinion. OCD is not an asset to beginners. 

 

Touche my friend. Touche.   

[jdm]

1 hour ago, 54chevy said:

Touche my friend. Touche.   

Don't get me wrong, you're absolutely right if you want to try a bit harder in finding what is wrong, the normal points of call are, besides pivots and jewels, the pallet stones and an uber perfect hairsping shape. I'm myself unable to tell from the pictures if one is most likely than another. 

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, 54chevy said:

9010 on gear train pivots except escape wheel, hp 1300 on escape wheel pivot, and 9415 on the pallet pins and jewels.  The are alot of conflicting charts out there on what oil where.  Please let me know if I got that wrong. 

for a whole variety of reasons were not going into their will always be conflicts in lubrication. enough conflict I will give you an answer but it may conflict with how I actually do things but I will give you the standard answer which should fit with just about everybody possibly.

For fast-moving pivots the recommendation is a light oil. fast-moving pivots of the balance wheel and escape wheel. A light oil would be 9010.

The rest of the gear train something heavier unfortunately HP 1300 is considered very heavy but it's a heavy oil

the pallet fork needs its pivots dry no oil as they have to move very fast. The pallet stones they get the 9415 but not too much. There's a variety ways of doing this but the 9415 has to be evenly distributed across the entire escape wheel just not too heavy. Then your wording of pallet pins pivots? If that's the pivots and you are using 9415 there that would definitely be an issue as that's definitely not where you want to put the lubrication. in other words if you want to lose a lack of a lot of amplitude lubricate the pallet fork pivots with something really heavy that would be considered very bad.

I have a link you'll notice a variety of PDFs possibly more than one may be of interest to you but for right now get number 40

https://www.cousinsuk.com/document/search?SearchString=working

then you can get some additional conflicts in lubrication. I don't use all the recommendations of what they say and I don't use unnecessarily where they say but the document still has some really good information. Notice the trend on gear train lubrication you start off light and then you go heavier.

but basically some general good information on how to lubricate where how much six a group

3 hours ago, jdm said:

Perfect lubrication does not fix a faulty watch and good but not perfect does not make much of a difference especially to said old worn out watches. 

there's some truth to this but? One of the reasons there are so much controversy with lubrication is for the most part you don't see spectacular failures. Because if people saw spectacular failures they would grasp that they shouldn't do this. So you get by with a lot of just about anything and the watch will run.  of course whether the watch is going to run and run well for several years that unfortunately will take several years to discover sometime soon.

there is one location of the watch where doing things extremely wrong will have a very visual effect on the amplitude. That is absolutely totally wrong lubrication on the escapement something is way too heavy or way too sticky. I'm reasonably sure somewhere on this group are somewhere else somebody had an issue because they used Molykote DX on their escapement's. You'll notice it's mentioned in the Omega document it's not used on escapement.

25 minutes ago, jdm said:

perfect hairsping shape

this is always a hard one for newbies to see if there hairspring is even close to being perfect. In other words it's supposed to be flat and it's not supposed to touch the balance arms. But it can be extremely close to the balance arms as long as it doesn't touch and that is really hard to see. So unfortunately a lot of things can cause poor performance of the timing machine

 

[54chevy]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

for a whole variety of reasons were not going into their will always be conflicts in lubrication. enough conflict I will give you an answer but it may conflict with how I actually do things but I will give you the standard answer which should fit with just about everybody possibly.

For fast-moving pivots the recommendation is a light oil. fast-moving pivots of the balance wheel and escape wheel. A light oil would be 9010.

The rest of the gear train something heavier unfortunately HP 1300 is considered very heavy but it's a heavy oil

the pallet fork needs its pivots dry no oil as they have to move very fast. The pallet stones they get the 9415 but not too much. There's a variety ways of doing this but the 9415 has to be evenly distributed across the entire escape wheel just not too heavy. Then your wording of pallet pins pivots? If that's the pivots and you are using 9415 there that would definitely be an issue as that's definitely not where you want to put the lubrication. in other words if you want to lose a lack of a lot of amplitude lubricate the pallet fork pivots with something really heavy that would be considered very bad.

I have a link you'll notice a variety of PDFs possibly more than one may be of interest to you but for right now get number 40

https://www.cousinsuk.com/document/search?SearchString=working

then you can get some additional conflicts in lubrication. I don't use all the recommendations of what they say and I don't use unnecessarily where they say but the document still has some really good information. Notice the trend on gear train lubrication you start off light and then you go heavier.

but basically some general good information on how to lubricate where how much six a group

there's some truth to this but? One of the reasons there are so much controversy with lubrication is for the most part you don't see spectacular failures. Because if people saw spectacular failures they would grasp that they shouldn't do this. So you get by with a lot of just about anything and the watch will run.  of course whether the watch is going to run and run well for several years that unfortunately will take several years to discover sometime soon.

there is one location of the watch where doing things extremely wrong will have a very visual effect on the amplitude. That is absolutely totally wrong lubrication on the escapement something is way too heavy or way too sticky. I'm reasonably sure somewhere on this group are somewhere else somebody had an issue because they used Molykote DX on their escapement's. You'll notice it's mentioned in the Omega document it's not used on escapement.

this is always a hard one for newbies to see if there hairspring is even close to being perfect. In other words it's supposed to be flat and it's not supposed to touch the balance arms. But it can be extremely close to the balance arms as long as it doesn't touch and that is really hard to see. So unfortunately a lot of things can cause poor performance of the timing machine

 

You guys are awesome.   Ill tear it down clean it and run the pallet pivot dry.  

 

For the 9415 I put a dab on under a microscope the install the pallet. Out some power into the watch and cycle the pallet back and forth coating the escape wheel teeth 

[jdm]

20 minutes ago, 54chevy said:

 Ill tear it down clean it and run the pallet pivot dry.  

Let us know. Logic dictates that when results are consistenty tied to position, lubrication takes a back seat in the list of possibilities

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 hours ago, 54chevy said:

hp 1300 on escape wheel pivot

This would be too thick for the escape wheel chevy. This is a tiny wheel and pivot with very little torque.  Hp 1300 would be more suited to say the centre wheel of a pocket watch.  The 9010 would have been ok.