Electric balance staff remover.

[Neverenoughwatches]

Eyup peeps. Does anyone have any experience with one of these ? Just wondering if its worth a punt. Has some kind of graver that lowers to grind off the staff rivet. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/204090114806?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=5h9wflT9SKS&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=tBiLZaCfRb2&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Edited October 4, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[clockboy]

This is a first for me, never come across one. If it punches out the old staff I would be very cautious indeed. I have a Platax tool which punches out the old staff BUT some staffs just do not come out with ease. These can cause issues if forced so I remove some of the balance staff rivet before I commence with the removal.. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

19 minutes ago, clockboy said:

This is a first for me, never come across one. If it punches out the old staff I would be very cautious indeed. I have a Platax tool which punches out the old staff BUT some staffs just do not come out with ease. These can cause issues if forced so I remove some of the balance staff rivet before I commence with the removal.. 

This does grind off the rivet.  The lever at the side starts up the motor and lower the graver .

[nickelsilver]

There was an actual Molfres at the Swiss school I attended, it was highly regarded. There's a very fine feed and apparently it's practically impossible to do damage to the balance. I've always turned off the hub (which is what it grinds off), so I never used it. When actual Molfres machines come up they always go for a pretty penny. Money I always figured was better off adding to the lathe accessories.

 

A quick vid that shows how it works.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by nickelsilver

[clockboy]

53 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

This does grind off the rivet.  The lever at the side starts up the motor and lower the graver .

This is a first for me, never come across one. If it punches out the old staff I would be very cautious indeed. I have a Platax tool which punches out the old staff BUT some staffs just do not come out with ease. These can cause issues if forced so I remove some of the balance staff rivet before I commence with the removal.. 

Having looked at the vid that could work providing the operator is ultra carful not to grind the balance wheel itself. For me just too risky, no second chances with this job. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 minutes ago, clockboy said:

This is a first for me, never come across one. If it punches out the old staff I would be very cautious indeed. I have a Platax tool which punches out the old staff BUT some staffs just do not come out with ease. These can cause issues if forced so I remove some of the balance staff rivet before I commence with the removal.. 

Having looked at the vid that could work providing the operator is ultra carful not to grind the balance wheel itself. For me just too risky, no second chances with this job. 

I must admit it doesnt seem to be affording much visual control . Maybe just one of those gimmicky ideas that sound great in theory. Just curious to anyones experiences with one. Appreciate your answer though clockboy

15 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

There was an actual Molfres at the Swiss school I attended, it was highly regarded. There's a very fine feed and apparently it's practically impossible to do damage to the balance. I've always turned off the hub (which is what it grinds off), so I never used it. When actual Molfres machines come up they always go for a pretty penny. Money I always figured was better off adding to the lathe accessories.

 

A quick vid that shows how it works.

 

 

I watched that one earlier. I thought the operator was carrying out the proceedure in the pub lol. The one for sale is a different design, the cutter is mounted at the top and the balance is fixed in a table like vice and raised up to the cutter. Like clockboy says a bit risky and not particularly refined enough for delicate work. 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

There was an actual Molfres at the Swiss school I attended, it was highly regarded. There's a very fine feed and apparently it's practically impossible to do damage to the balance. I've always turned off the hub (which is what it grinds off), so I never used it. When actual Molfres machines come up they always go for a pretty penny. Money I always figured was better off adding to the lathe accessories.

yes a very specialized tool where money could be used to buy  a lathe at so much more flexible and what you can use it for.

Then there's a minor problem of the cutting disc are they still available? Because I don't know if that's a generic disk or something unique for the machine.

Then schools like them because they like to teach balance staff replacement and it's a fast way to make the old staff go away. But what I'm not seeing on the tool is if there's a way of setting the depth of the cut. To have your cutting the exact same balance you should be able to put balance in and the cutting will be exact in very precise but what if you change to a different size balance wheel is there a setting?

then the first link has additional pictures of the tool. The second link can't read a word of it has pictures showing what the tool does. They can see what part of the staff it grinds off although to me it looks like they might have touched the balance arm but hard to tell in the picture

https://www.nielsmachines.com/de/bergeon-5478-mofres-balance-staff-remover-milling.html

http://laboratoriodiorologeria.blogspot.com/2015/10/sostituzione-asse-bilanciere-con-molfres.html

[Neverenoughwatches]

24 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

 

Then there's a minor problem of the cutting disc are they still available? Because I don't know if that's a generic disk or something unique for the machine.

The cutting disk looks very similar to a miniature cut off wheel. That is a different design to the one for sale. This is the same one.

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/PQn7stkgFtU

[nickelsilver]

11 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The cutting disk looks very similar to a miniature cut off wheel. That is a different design to the one for sale. This is the same one.

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/PQn7stkgFtU

To someone who's never seen a car a Fiat looks like a Bugatti. John may have a point here, there are the standard "Dremel" cut of wheels but it may be that the range of adjustment on the machine was built for (and I agree, it looks like a Dremel wheel) a "x" diameter wheel and Dremel/Proxonn is 2mm different, and that's beyond the adjustment range of the machine. Who knows? I never will.

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

To someone who's never seen a car a Fiat looks like a Bugatti. John may have a point here, there are the standard "Dremel" cut of wheels but it may be that the range of adjustment on the machine was built for (and I agree, it looks like a Dremel wheel) a "x" diameter wheel and Dremel/Proxonn is 2mm different, and that's beyond the adjustment range of the machine. Who knows? I never will.

Extremely unlikely the cutter will be available now. But i am still curious, so curious that i will ask for pictures of the cutter. The seller is asking around $140 . Thank you for the reply nickelsilver, i was hoping someone might have used one. I do have a lathe , and i should start to learn on it really. I just love gadgets especially old ones and i was drawn to it as soon as i saw it.

[VWatchie]

The listing reads: "Omega 500 Matricola Multimatic". So, made by Omega!!! 

If you doubt it, the proof is imprinted on the plate attached to the bottom of the machine. So go for it, It must be worth every penny!

[Neverenoughwatches]

42 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

The listing reads: "Omega 500 Matricola Multimatic". So, made by Omega!!! 

If you doubt it, the proof is imprinted on the plate attached to the bottom of the machine. So go for it, It must be worth every penny!

Haha.  Good ohm, i mean good one. You  are feeling better matey.  I've researched it , an Italian made device.

[Marc]

Resurrecting an old thread because there's one of these just appeared on eBay, albeit with a very misleading description.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/116057709213?hash=item1b05941a9d%3Ag%3AH68AAOSwc8dlvgzP&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwNHVJ6dkY%2FFW4KXJdAMVbZBtcBM2jZED3vrALHGX5zx4PnEhVj2zUJvkqnqj295S40ywnvORIWRX8gqeYt3JI3PO15FVN5ZH9cKpk%2BPegjpu73whkVUAXkBqkeftfn7oKmBgVSSyig7z%2FdPaEc9flbsZJeS%2FetM96B03lkPjbjyhBO0JprY35BvSmtoHdeLBRdlaa4o8DcBifHPGUB2RyweMF%2FD0e8KTZYTrVEzQjqsL8F2yFcrMvk7LHhPfC%2FoYIw%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR6Tpt_2tYw&LH_ItemCondition=3000

[watchweasol]

Hi @Neverenoughwatches an odd ball tool better off with a Kendrick, this looks a bit like an electric version, no instructions a bit hit and miss.

[Neverenoughwatches]

38 minutes ago, Marc said:

Resurrecting an old thread because there's one of these just appeared on eBay, albeit with a very misleading description.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/116057709213?hash=item1b05941a9d%3Ag%3AH68AAOSwc8dlvgzP&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwNHVJ6dkY%2FFW4KXJdAMVbZBtcBM2jZED3vrALHGX5zx4PnEhVj2zUJvkqnqj295S40ywnvORIWRX8gqeYt3JI3PO15FVN5ZH9cKpk%2BPegjpu73whkVUAXkBqkeftfn7oKmBgVSSyig7z%2FdPaEc9flbsZJeS%2FetM96B03lkPjbjyhBO0JprY35BvSmtoHdeLBRdlaa4o8DcBifHPGUB2RyweMF%2FD0e8KTZYTrVEzQjqsL8F2yFcrMvk7LHhPfC%2FoYIw%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR6Tpt_2tYw&LH_ItemCondition=3000

I saw that earlier today but paid no attention to it. Too much.

[clockboy]

To sum up removing a balance staff can cause many issues if not removed with care and no distortion to the balance wheel. The way to remove a balance staff with little danger of creating other problems is to go to the tried and test method for many years by removing the balance rivet on a watchmakers lathe.  Changing a balance staff was a common job for a horologist before the emergence of shock jewels and this was their method. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 minutes ago, clockboy said:

To sum up removing a balance staff can cause many issues if not removed with care and no distortion to the balance wheel. The way to remove a balance staff with little danger of creating other problems is to go to the tried and test method for many years by removing the balance rivet on a watchmakers lathe.  Changing a balance staff was a common job for a horologist before the emergence of shock jewels and this was their method. 

F.W. Britten recommended this method almost 100 years ago. I spend a little time on another forum, this subject came up a few months ago and almost everyone in the discussion would not accept it as a more valid method. 

[nevenbekriev]

Something to say here.

Cutting the rivet on lathe  is not quite possible, at least not all of it. The right way is cutting the table of the staff, from the roller side of the staff. And, this machine does exactly this. It is absolytelly safe to use. The table is not actually grinded to the end, but just to 0,1 to 0.05mm. Then the balance is placed on an anvil with hole and the staff is punched with a pnch that is smaller than the hole of the wheel. The remained not grinded part of the table breaks like washer and the staff falls thru the hole of anvil.

This machine is for people who have no lathe or can't work on one. It lets them safeely remove the broken staffs with no damage to the balance wheel. The Platax tool is good only for roller removal, but it ruins the balances if they are not made of steel (the old bimetalic compensation ones)

[clockboy]

Agree but a watchmakers lathe is the most versatile tool a horologist can have hence why it was used. 

[Marc]

1 hour ago, clockboy said:

To sum up removing a balance staff can cause many issues if not removed with care and no distortion to the balance wheel. The way to remove a balance staff with little danger of creating other problems is to go to the tried and test method for many years by removing the balance rivet on a watchmakers lathe.  Changing a balance staff was a common job for a horologist before the emergence of shock jewels and this was their method. 

I couldn't agree more, and that is how I go about it although I prefer to cut the hub rather than try and get the rivet.

However I'm also a self confessed tool junkie so I was rather intrigued by this when I came across it, especially as it was described as some sort of "stacking tool", I had to know more. A quick Googlefoo and I arrived at this thread on our very own forum and thought that the folks on here might be interested.

I'm afraid it's one of my more obscure obsessions, the practice of finding "things" that I have no idea what they are, and trying to figure it out. I do it at car boot sales too, in fact they are the best hunting grounds, where the seller has no idea what they are selling. I invariably end up either with an absolute bargain, or simply enjoying engaging the seller in a little voyage of discovery.

[oldhippy]

I have learned something new today. I have never heard or seen such a tool before. 

[luiazazrambo]

Got them today, I am going to scan all pages of the manuals in a week or so and going to share.

[Neverenoughwatches]

43 minutes ago, luiazazrambo said:

Got them today, I am going to scan all pages of the manuals in a week or so and going to share.

I have only ever seen one of these for sale, I was quite disappointed after I hadn't bought it.  After discovering how easy it is to cut through a staff with a lathe, I don't mind now. 

[watchweasol]

A well thought out machine I did see a UTube demo of one and it did a good job faster than a lathe, it’s a case of preference I suppose.

[Neverenoughwatches]

33 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

A well thought out machine I did see a UTube demo of one and it did a good job faster than a lathe, it’s a case of preference I suppose.

One of the reasons I didn't buy it, the seller couldn't tell me how the grinding disk fitted,  It made me unsure if I could get any more.  It was cheap though,  for a rare tool,  about £100.

Edited Sunday at 09:08 PM by Neverenoughwatches