Stuck smooth canon pinion

[Dzwiedz]

Hello,

 

I have a vintage pocket watch with smooth canon pinion that is stuck. I cannot use my presto tool as there is no "bulge" on canon pinion. Following some threads I found and advice already given I have ordered a pin vise and tried to tighten it on canon pinion and remove without any luck or success. Wrapping a layer of tin foil under the pin vise did not help at all too. I do not have staking set. I also tried to make a small lever below the canon pinion gear but there is not enough space plus I fear to damage it.

I thought I could try to hammer the top of center wheel pivot down, but the main bridge is holding it from the other side. Unfortunately, I could not remove third wheel next to center wheel from the main bridge as it is being held by canon pinion/center wheel other end. Due to this I am afraid to try to hammer this down with main bridge unscrewed as I fear I may destroy third wheels pivots or center wheel or both or anything else like top end of center wheel's pivot.

Attaching pictures made via loupe, I hope it is helpful. Also attaching picture of pin vise that did not help - I was also getting an impression that since canon pinion is friction fit screwing pin vise on it harder would actually not help to remove it but tighten it instead...

Are there any other ideas how I may try to remove this canon pinion without destroying something? I also know I have limited tools: presto tool, pin vise, steel tweezers only etc.

I would also like to add that this is second watch I try to disassemble, clean and reassemble, hence I am a very very beginner. This watch is (was...?) also working, would love to see that again after...

Thank you!

[RedVitus]

When using a pin vice for CP removal, I use a gentle lifting motion while twisting the vise back and forth, that helps to loosen it. Is that how you did it? Lifting it without twisting probably wouldn't work very well.

Curious about the wrapping of foil inside the pin vise.  Was the vice not the correct size for the pinion? Asking because I have removed many CP with pin vices and have not ever used anything but the vice alone.

Edited October 28, 2022 by RedVitus

[Dzwiedz]

22 minutes ago, RedVitus said:

When using a pin vice for CP removal, I use a gentle lifting motion while twisting the vise back and forth, that helps to loosen it. Is that how you did it? Lifting it without twisting probably wouldn't work very well.

Curious about the wrapping of foil inside the pin vise.  Was the vice not the correct size for the pinion? Asking because I have removed many CP with pin vices and have not ever used anything but the vice alone.

Thank you for trying to help me out!

Regarding advice to twist it left/right with up movement - how should I "lock" center wheel so it does not twist along with pin vise movements? Should I for example place finger on mainspring barrel so it blocks center wheel? Will it not bend or destroy the gear?

I will try to do that this way, but would love to make sure how you lock canter wheel so it does not move left/right.

About wrapping tin foil, pin vise is correct and can catch canon pinion, it was just some advice from another thread that I have tried. It was from 5-10 years ago, google search threw it out as a result.  

[Nucejoe]

Helps to know the caliber you are working on? 

Rgds

[RedVitus]

8 minutes ago, Dzwiedz said:

Regarding advice to twist it left/right with up movement - how should I "lock" center wheel so it does not twist along with pin vise movements? Should I for example place finger on mainspring barrel so it blocks center wheel? Will it not bend or destroy the gear?

If the escapement is in place then center wheel should be "locked" in place. Looking at your photos, you would need to put the 4th wheel, escape wheel and pallet fork back in.

Edited October 28, 2022 by RedVitus

[Nucejoe]

Center arbour might be bent.

 

[Dzwiedz]

43 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Helps to know the caliber you are working on? 

Rgds

If you mean the canon pinion, it is 1mm thick by my measurement.

 

43 minutes ago, RedVitus said:

If the escapement is in place then center wheel should be "locked" in place. Looking at your photos, you would need to put the 4th wheel, escape wheel and pallet fork back in.

Oh... Okay, thank you, I did not think that canon pinion would be so difficult to remove. Will try your way and update you guys.

 

40 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Center arbour might be bent.

 

Does not look like it is bent, I will check if I manage to take canon pinion out.

[watchweasol]

Hi I seem to remember reading on this forum some one had the same problem. It was advocated to dismantle the watch leaving only the center wheel and canon pinion on the front plate, Then supporting the front plate tap the top of the center wheel and it pops out. leaving the canon pinion loose.    Grateful if some one could confirm my assumptions. 

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, Dzwiedz said:

If you mean the canon pinion, it is 1mm thick by my measurement.

 The caliber of the movement ,  who made it, so one can refer to relevent data sheet  (if one exists)  to know more about the movement .

Watchweasol is very likely to be right, it might just need to be tapped out but then it might not. 

Do you see a makers logo on any bridge? 

 

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, Dzwiedz said:

smooth canon pinion that is stuck

It's not stuck is doing exactly what it's supposed to do. Did you notice it doesn't look like the normal canon pinion? It doesn't even function the same for one thing it doesn't rotate its fixed on something. The something that's what rotates. We've actually covered this before somewhere in the message board.

 

4 hours ago, Dzwiedz said:

I thought I could try to hammer the top of center wheel pivot down, but the main bridge is holding it from the other side. Unfortunately, I could not remove third wheel next to center wheel from the main bridge as it is being held by canon pinion/center wheel other end. Due to this I am afraid to try to hammer this down with main bridge unscrewed as I fear I may destroy third wheels pivots or center wheel or both or anything else like top end of center wheel's pivot.

Typically on the vintage you'll find this if the canon pinion is As you notice very heavy and very smooth and usually sticks up but occasionally it doesn't typically it has a center pin that goes into a center wheel tube. What you need to do is support the backside staking set works really well for this so that the pin can come out. Then you can tap on the other side straight down as you don't want to break its hammering at some weird angle and the pins should come out.

They're much easier to spot when the really vintage and they have the square on the back for setting. Yours is much harder to tell sometimes the other side will be a little bit bigger you can see it looks like the head of a ground nail for instance but yours is really hard.

I snipped out some images from your images suit and see yours up close. You look really carefully at the backside of what looks like the end of the center wheel does it look like kind of a weird head of a nail? In other words is it a pin? Then images out of a prior watch C can see what you're looking at because the only way these come out as they have to be driven out and you absolutely have to support the backside otherwise distort the plate and doing it without the bridge in place is usually a bad idea because it has a habit of not being stable and you can break things

 

9 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

The caliber of the movement ,  who made it, so one can refer to relevent data sheet  (

They really would be nice if we had a tech sheet for every single watch in existence but this one's too old and more than likely to generic

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by JohnR725

[Dzwiedz]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

 The caliber of the movement ,  who made it, so one can refer to relevent data sheet  (if one exists)  to know more about the movement .

Watchweasol is very likely to be right, it might just need to be tapped out but then it might not. 

Do you see a makers logo on any bridge? 

 

I could spot on the movement "PATENT", maybe a logo of "G.T" and number (probably) - 551. Attaching pictures of case with all the markings/information on it - maybe it helps? If someone can identify it or provide any additional information that would be great.

 

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

It's not stuck is doing exactly what it's supposed to do. Did you notice it doesn't look like the normal canon pinion? It doesn't even function the same for one thing it doesn't rotate its fixed on something. The something that's what rotates. We've actually covered this before somewhere in the message board.

Typically on the vintage you'll find this if the canon pinion is As you notice very heavy and very smooth and usually sticks up but occasionally it doesn't typically it has a center pin that goes into a center wheel tube. What you need to do is support the backside staking set works really well for this so that the pin can come out. Then you can tap on the other side straight down as you don't want to break its hammering at some weird angle and the pins should come out.

They're much easier to spot when the really vintage and they have the square on the back for setting. Yours is much harder to tell sometimes the other side will be a little bit bigger you can see it looks like the head of a ground nail for instance but yours is really hard.

I snipped out some images from your images suit and see yours up close. You look really carefully at the backside of what looks like the end of the center wheel does it look like kind of a weird head of a nail? In other words is it a pin? Then images out of a prior watch C can see what you're looking at because the only way these come out as they have to be driven out and you absolutely have to support the backside otherwise distort the plate and doing it without the bridge in place is usually a bad idea because it has a habit of not being stable and you can break things

Okay, I read your post couple of times and I am missing some details...

First thing, yes, the opposite side of canon pinion is ended like a pin or a nail head - the end of center's wheel pivot. It definitely is like that. I tried to gently screw off the bridge and try to raise it but this "nail head" keeps it and does not allow to somehow pull it out - the bridge is delicate and I do not want to bend/break it.

Some questions:

- do I understand correctly that this canon pinion is a thing as whole and does not have usual friction fit to center's wheel pivot?

- I do not have the staking set, is it possible to remove it without it?

- is marked place a spot where I should hit with hammer? Also, what with the bridge on the other side? It hold it together so hitting that thing will not help?

Sorry, but I am confused here on how to do that your way.

[Nucejoe]

 There you are, JohnR  got here in time to rescue  "  its not stuck is doing exactly what its suppose to do  ".

Do if you will please familiarize with watchmakers trade marks and caliber No (traditionaly engraved on movements which is how they are identified) , occasionally we need  to go by the shape of the keyless of a movement for its identification.

Rgds

 

 

 

 

[Dzwiedz]

Thank you all for your help, I have managed to remove the pinion from it's "nail" with a small help of hammer. Took me a while as I was afraid to hit it too hard, but after I lost all hope one stronger punch was all it needed.

[TimeWerks]

Thanks for the advice provided on this topic!  I was faced with a similar question and was able to resolve it quickly once I understood the canon pinion is attached to a pin that goes through the movent to the top of the center wheel bridge.   I used a staking tool to tap the end that pokes out of the canon pinion, then flipped the movement over and was able to grap the pin head using a canon pinion remover to finish the job on it now that it was pushed out a bit. 

Not enough gap to get a lever under this (it is a thin washer under the arbor head)

Smooth canon pinion top, can't grab with a canon pinion remover.

A couple gentle taps on the end of the arbor, pushes it away from the center bridge on the other side.

The arbor end was protruding enough now that I could get the canon pinion remover under it to finish removing it.

[nickelsilver]

The above post is exactly how to manage these. Note, if the center wheel is jeweled, the head of the pin will  invariably be small enough to pass through the jewel. Take off the center wheel bridge, and support the center wheel with its pivot passing through a hole, so the force is on the pinion, then tap. Otherwise there's a very high (almost 100%) chance of destroying the jewel.