Seiko Perpetual Calendar--Perplexing Irregularity

[swordfish]

I hope you can help me with this problem. I built a Seiko Perpetual Calendar watch by using hands from one watch, mechanism from another, a case from a third--you get the idea. For about two months it worked PERFECTLY. Now, it is, shall I say, imperfectly imperfect. When I set the watch and then look at it, say, four hours later, I find that it is 5 - 10 minutes fast. But at the end of 24 hours, it is still only 5 - 10 minutes fast. Other times, it might be similarly slow.

If this were a mechanical watch, I'd know where to look for the diagnosis, but this is a quartz watch. If the problem were always that it runs slow, I'd look for hands crossing or dragging. But that won't explain it running fast.

I don't even know where to start on this problem. I am a self-taught hobbyist in watch repair, learning from my (many, alas) mistakes as I go along. But I'm COMPLETELY stumped on this. I don't even know what mistake to make!

Any ideas?

[Blacklab]

Try a new battery, by the way what's the calibre?

[anilv]

Could be play in the gears...?

Not too familiar in this movement but in a mech watch when setting the time the wheels work off the stem but under normal running conditions the minute hand runs off the cannon pinion.

Try moving the hands slightly ahead of the actual time and then moving it backwards to get the time you want. If you over'back' the hands set it forwards and try backing it again.

If the above works then you've got too much free play somewhere... either worn teeth or a worn post/pivot.

I repeat I'm not too familiar with quartz watches so your problem maybe something else altogether!

Anil

[swordfish]

The caliber of the Seiko is 8F32. I don't see how hand slippage could account for both fast running and slow running.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Lawson]

Are you able to test it on a quartz movement analyzer? 

 

Am I safe to presume you've already serviced the mechanical side of this movement?  If you haven't, I'd start with that first ... then if the problem persists it's the circuit that will need to be replaced.

 

Newer quartz circuits have their rate automatically regulated.  Unlike the older movement, where you have a trimmer capacitor;  modern movements are automatically monitored and adjusted on a continuous basis. 

[JohnR725]

In case you don't have them I found you some technical information.

 

Usually on quartz watches as far as regulation issues of fast and slow go there usually fast or slow by seconds per month. If the watches slow outside a regulation range it's a mechanical issue. Gummy oil a speck of dust as it takes almost nothing to stop some of the quartz watches something's interfering. Usually almost never see a quartz watch running abnormally fast. There's no hairspring to stick together etc.Anytime I've seen something like this is usually always the circuit something is wrong with the circuit. If you look at the video on changing the battery there is a remark made of just how thin the circuit board is an easy to damage it. Then damage doesn't always have to be a physical damage any kind of surface contamination battery leaking, Condensation for instances leaked into the case and got on the circuit board can be a problem.

 

Then anilv's remark regarding of the play of the gear train. Can't remember which watch but I've seen setting instructions with a reference to making sure you turn the hands the proper direction to take out the slack so that when you push the crown back in the watch will start running and the hands waxy start moving. But if you follow the proper setting instructions in the manual it shouldn't be a problem.

 

So probably won't fix the problem but you could try doing a reset following the setting instructions exactly and if you're lucky perhaps the problem will go away.

 

 

 

http://www.seikowatches.com/support/ib/pdf/SEIKO_4F32_8F32_8F33.pdf

 

http://www.batterybob.com/info/4F32A_8F32A_33A_35A.pdf

[swordfish]

I'm almost afraid to write this—don't want to jinx anything—but the Seiko problem APPEARS cured. Since I don't know what caused it, I can't be sure. Among other peculiarities, I noticed that the hour hand was lagging behind the minute hand. That is, at, say, 9 o'clock, the hour hand has several degrees south of 9. So I manually advanced the time until the date indicator advanced. I tweaked the minute hand back a bit, and the hour hand forward a bit, until they were both straight up at 12. Then I rewound to about an hour before the current time, then forward to the current time. Now my baby is running within a second of my setting standard ( my cell phone), and the date advances at 19 seconds after midnight. Here's hoping the gremlins don't return to infest my watch!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Lawson]

That's great news Swordfish!

 

There is nothing like the feeling of tackling a difficult problem after many hours of patience and perseverance.

[Geo]

Good that you've managed to fix it; I hate mysteries though.

[swordfish]

<sigh> My irregularity has returned! (Sounds like a laxative commercial, doesn't it?) I see that the second hand and the hour hand of my Seiko Perpetual calendar watch are running perfectly, but the minute hand has advanced about twenty minutes more than it should. (The image I'll post was taken at about 10:40. Note that the hour hand is correct for that time, but the minute hand is not.)

My differential diagnosis is (1) the minute hand is loose on the cannon pinion, or (2) the cannon pinion is loose on the center post, or (3) both. I think that any defect in gear engagement, such as missing tooth, would present as a CONSISTENT error of minute hand movement rather than an EPISODIC error.

Any recommendations on how to proceed?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Edited September 26, 2015 by swordfish

[clockboy]

The fact that the hour hand dragged once indicates to me this the area to look at. I am not that familiar with quartz movements but thats where I would start.

[swordfish]

Clockboy, I appreciate your offering me advice. That I am not going to take it does not reflect any lack of appreciation, just disagreement. You see, I have very little time available to actually work on repairing the watches I have. Therefore, I spend an inordinate amount of time analyzing the symptoms before actually proceeding with tweezers in hand.

In reflecting on this watch's dysfunction, I realize that I have never seen it actually stop running. The chief symptom I see is a discordance between minute and hour hand. For example, when the hour hand points exactly at 6, the minute hand should point exactly at 12. If that doesn't occur, one (or both) of the hands is wrong. That is what I mean by discordance.

My original speculation of a cannon pinion inadequately affixed to the center post cannot be correct. Such a problem would leave the hands concordantly wrong, not discordantly wrong.

My observation is that the hour hand is correct, but the minute hand is not. In a properly running watch, the cannon pinion meshes with the minute wheel, which meshes with the hour wheel. An enmeshment failure should present as consistent increasing error of time measurement, not quantum leaps of error. Similarly, if the problem were only hour hand dragging on the dial, that should cause the watch to under-report elapsed time, but it should do that with either concordant rather than discordant hands, or with the hour hand being incorrect with a correct minute hand.

If the minute hand were dragging over the dial, or episodically dragging over the hour hand, that might cause discordant under-reporting of elapsed time, but never over-reporting of elapsed time.

Therefore, my current theory is that the minute hand is inadequately affixed to the cannon pinion, and that episodic forceful wrist motion jars that minute hand forward or backward, but does not affect the hour hand on its pipe.

It may not be a coincidence that this new minute hand problem occurred shortly after I injured my right knee. I have been using a cane held in my left hand—I wear my watch on the left wrist—and I set down the cane with some force every time I step with my right leg. Alas, it will likely prove easier to repair the watch than the knee.

So...after all that analysis, my plan is to tighten the hole at the base of the minute hand. When I'll actually get around to doing it is less certain.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[clockboy]

Ok let us know the result.

PS hope the knee gets better soon.

[swordfish]

Follow-up report:

I removed the mechanism from the case. As I slipped a thin nylon dial guard under the minute hand, the very slight pressure of that dial guard lifted the minute hand off its pivot. That showed me how loosely the minute hand had been affixed to its pivot, corroborating my diagnosis that that had been the source of the discordant time measurement error.

To tighten the opening of the minute hand, I used my staking tool for just the second time. (Recall that I'm a newbie hobbyist.) I placed the hand, topside down, on the die plate, and gently tapped the minute hand hole with a round end solid punch whose diameter was about twice that of the hole. (The tinkling sound one could hear at that time was not my hammering, but rather the sound of me sweating bullets, fearful that I would hammer too hard and break the minute hand.)

I felt some gratifying frictional resistance as I replaced the minute hand. The watch has been running concordantly and correctly ever since. (See photo.)

The process worked so well that I am now considering hammering my right knee with the same punch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Geo]

Good result Swordfish! :)

[clockboy]

Good result Swordfish this is the technic I now use.