Poor amplitude from Smiths 0104

[Bill241]

Afternoon all,

Here is my Smiths Imperial, a rather grandly named but fairly straightforward 9ct gold watch from 1959. This was a GEC presentation watch but not one saved for Sunday best- the case was covered in gunk when I bought it and the movement, whilst working, hadn’t been serviced in a long time. 
 

Despite stripping it down twice, cleaning and then inspecting the parts over and over, and fitting a brand new mainspring, the amplitude remains unsatisfactory. 

I think I’ve found the problem- there is too much side shake in the barrel arbor bearing on the barrel bridge. My  very basic understanding of metallurgy tells me that the soft brass barrel bridge, rather than the hard steel barrel arbor, has worn away. 

Before I crack on with tracking down replacement parts of this long obsolete calibre, would it be best to replace both the bridge and the arbor? I’m just mindful that if the arbor is rough, it’ll just cut into the new barrel bridge…

 

[tomh207]

I am  not an expert by any means, however the normal practice would be to close the hole somewhat with a staking set then making the hole the correct size for the arbor using smoothing broaches

 

 

Tom

[Nucejoe]

Arbour and bridge hole should both be checked for wear.  High magnification is very useful. I prefer bushing the hole, as said it can also be closed and resized. 

Does the barrel noticably tilt?

If you don't  gain enough amplitude by gently adding manual  power to the barrel, check for heavy lock on pallet and if possible let us see an image of the lock.

Rgds

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, Bill241 said:

Afternoon all,

Here is my Smiths Imperial, a rather grandly named but fairly straightforward 9ct gold watch from 1959. This was a GEC presentation watch but not one saved for Sunday best- the case was covered in gunk when I bought it and the movement, whilst working, hadn’t been serviced in a long time. 
 

Despite stripping it down twice, cleaning and then inspecting the parts over and over, and fitting a brand new mainspring, the amplitude remains unsatisfactory. 

I think I’ve found the problem- there is too much side shake in the barrel arbor bearing on the barrel bridge. My  very basic understanding of metallurgy tells me that the soft brass barrel bridge, rather than the hard steel barrel arbor, has worn away. 

Before I crack on with tracking down replacement parts of this long obsolete calibre, would it be best to replace both the bridge and the arbor? I’m just mindful that if the arbor is rough, it’ll just cut into the new barrel bridge…

 

These are a lovely watch imo, i already have a Deluxe and 3 Astrals but consider the Imperial to be the better of the bunch and still on the hunt for one and an Everest at a good price. 2 of the 4 i have do have low amplitude although a bit higher than this, something i haven't got around to investigating yet.

[Bill241]

Yes, there’s a noticeable tilt in the barrel and there’s a lot of play where the barrel arbor comes through the barrel bridge. I’ve found a replacement bridge which hopefully won’t have the same issue. I’ll report back with an update. 

I’ll put the worn bridge to one side and return to it when I’ve learnt the art of rebushing. 

These are nice watches, and relatively easy to work on. 
 

[Neverenoughwatches]

19 minutes ago, Bill241 said:

Yes, there’s a noticeable tilt in the barrel and there’s a lot of play where the barrel arbor comes through the barrel bridge. I’ve found a replacement bridge which hopefully won’t have the same issue. I’ll report back with an update. 

I’ll put the worn bridge to one side and return to it when I’ve learnt the art of rebushing. 

These are nice watches, and relatively easy to work on. 
 

Also worth a bob or two, the Imperial fetching more than the deluxe and Astral. A gold Imperial starting at around 600 up to over a grand for a good condition and working example. More if you can wait to sell on Chrono24. 

[Nucejoe]

A closed and resized hole wont be as good as the original  factory made one,  usually bushings are made of metals more resistant to wear in comparison to metal bridge is made of. 

 

[RichardHarris123]

I had to post this because I know you will be jealous of the dial.  Hehe. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I had to post this because I know you will be jealous of the dial.  Hehe. 

Its an English Smith inside, but whats happened to the dial lettering ?

[RichardHarris123]

5 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Its an English Smith inside, but whats happened to the dial lettering ?

Still just visible in the right light.  

[mikepilk]

As @tomh207 says, it's easy to close the hole with a staking set. There's a clear explanation on how to do it here :  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rshFo-KGgjY&list=PL7q4FTKNfQj8rC-M6ZChQQXQuSix17V5-&index=31

 

(PS can anyone tell me how to insert a Youtube link so that it shows the video image?)

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Still just visible in the right light.  

Ah ok, i couldnt see anything on the dial.

[RichardHarris123]

11 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Ah ok, i couldnt see anything on the dial.

This is where the debate on keeping things original or refurbishment comes in. Have the dial refinished?

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

This is where the debate on keeping things original or refurbishment comes in. Have the dial refinished?

I think that depends if you are keeping it and want something custom for yourself. I've seen a lot of refinished dials for sale, some crappy some not so bad. Personally i dont think i would ever buy a refinished dial watch. Most of its character seems to go, i would always choose originality over redial. If its vintage then it should show its history whatever that is, battlescarred or kept in draw for years. It just feels halfway to a frankenwatch to me. If my missus had facial surgery i wouldn't be looking at the woman i married.

[RichardHarris123]

Good point, maybe we should start a new thread. We're hijacked this one. Sorry @Bill241

[Bill241]

On 2/15/2023 at 10:18 AM, mikepilk said:

As @tomh207 says, it's easy to close the hole with a staking set. There's a clear explanation on how to do it here :  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rshFo-KGgjY&list=PL7q4FTKNfQj8rC-M6ZChQQXQuSix17V5-&index=31

 

(PS can anyone tell me how to insert a Youtube link so that it shows the video image?)

 

I might try the staking technique on a scrap movement. Thanks for the link. 
 

I bought a replacement barrel bridge but this has not resolved the poor amplitude. The train and escapement seem fine- I now suspect the problem lies in the new mainspring. Didn’t you have an issue with a new GR spring in this calibre? I think I might just need to bite the bullet and get another one. 

[Bill241]

A belated update as I’ve finally got round to looking at this one. 

I closed up the hole in the barrel bridge to reduce the sideshake but the amplitude wouldn’t exceed 150 degrees. 

The next step was to remove the ‘new’ GR mainspring from Cousins and it looks rather tired! 

I’ve fitted a new one from a different supplier and immediately the amplitude increased to 230 degrees. Rather more respectable for this type of watch. I think another service (there is oil in the lever pivot holes) will improve it further…

Edited September 25, 2024 by Bill241