Watch becomes overbanked when in the dial up position. Runs perfectly otherwise

[GregG]

I have a watch that will run for hours with no problem when in the dial-down position, but when put in the dial-up position, will run for about 30 seconds before becoming overbanked.  It's not always overbanked, sometimes a gentle tap will get the balance moving again.  But other times it's totally locked up and requires removal of the balance to fix.

I had replaced the mainspring with a white alloy.  My first assumption was that the amplitude was too high, but a slow mo video showed that amplitude is only about 180 degrees.  The endshake of the balance is a bit high.  I can hear the distinct galloping sound when it's dial-up.

Unfortunately, it was tough to get a good shot of the pallet/balance when it was locked up.  What other photos could help diagnose the issue?

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by GregG

[Petersas]

Pallet jewel needs adjusting 

Or could be roller-table is to high .

[GregG]

I don't think anything is wrong with the pallet jewels, other than the shellac looks strangely old and crusty.

But with regards to your roller table idea.  Is it because when it's upside down, the impulse pin might fall out of contact with the forked end of the pallet and guard pin, so the balance can spin to the opposite side without the pallet fork having bene engaged as well?  Then on the swing back, if it does contact the forked end, they're on the wrong side, so it stops dead in its tracks?

[mikepilk]

I agree with @Petersas

Check the balance endshake - make sure that the guard pin stays in the correct vertical position with regard to the slot in the roller, and that the jewel stays in the fork.

Edited February 27, 2023 by mikepilk

[Nucejoe]

Couldn't open your vid.

Petersas makes sense, check all shakes in the escapement and pallets, ....  lock ...etc.

Is it adjustable banks? 

High magnification is a must have in watch repair.

Good luck

.

 

[RichardHarris123]

A picture of the other side of the pallet. 

[Nucejoe]

8 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

A picture of the other side of the pallet. 

Richard are you suspecting bent pivot on the fork? 

Frankly, pallets look a bit misaligned too, repivotted, has had a hard life.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Nucejoe

[GregG]

40 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Couldn't open your vid.

Petersas makes sense, check all shakes in the escapement and pallets, ....  lock ...etc.

Is it adjustable banks? 

High magnification is a must have in watch repair.

Good luck

.

 

Don't think the banking is adjustable, but I will double check.  I will remove the third/escape wheels later today to get a clearer picture for everyone.

20 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Richard are you suspecting bent pivot on the fork? 

Frankly, pallets look a bit misaligned too, repivotted, has had a hard life.

I will take some pictures of the pallet fork.  Didn't seem misaligned to me when I had it off.  Could just be the angle of the photo.

[RichardHarris123]

19 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Richard are you suspecting bent pivot on the fork? 

Frankly, pallets look a bit misaligned too, repivotted, has had a hard life.

Yes, I've found that watches can run remarkably well in one position with broken pivots and not run at all in other positions. 

[Nucejoe]

36 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Yes, I've found that watches can run remarkably well in one position with broken pivots and not run at all in other positions. 

 

36 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Yes, I've found that watches can run remarkably well in one position with broken pivots and not run at all in other positions. 

Fork arbour looks shellaced in the hole , perhaps not a good friction fit,  so might not be perpendicular to the fork. 

but either case both us are likely to have located the fault. 

Rgds

 

[GregG]

19 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Fork arbour looks shellaced in the hole , perhaps not a good friction fit

Can you clarify what you mean?

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, GregG said:

Can you clarify what you mean?

Fork arbour looks its been shellaced in place, not friction fitted, so if the fork is lopsided as a result, a pallet might miss a escape teeth causing overbank.

[GregG]

I got some more pictures today.  I also got a video of the endshake on the pallet fork.  I forgot to take a video of endshake on the balance, but it seems very high (though the staff does not seem to be broken).  Not sure what to do about that since the jewels are rubbed in.  Also, in the first two pictures, I did my best to capture what the balance/pallet look like when it's stuck.  Interestingly, the jewel is on the opposite side of the pallet in those pictures.  The pallet fork is hung up on the roller.  Though without the escape wheel in the gear train, I think the pallet was free to swing to the opposite side under gravity get stuck.  Banking is fixed.

I purchased an inexpensive USB microscope that should be here tomorrow so hopefully I can take some better photos.

 

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by GregG

[Nucejoe]

3 hours ago, GregG said:

 I forgot to take a video of endshake on the balance, but it seems very high (though the staff does not seem to be broken).  Not sure what to do about that since the jewels are rubbed in.  

You can reduce the endshake by adjusting the cock, place a piece of aluminum foil in between the cock and mainplate, placing the shim near the outer premeter of the mainplate tilts the cock lowering its setting, move the shim inward /outward to get the perfect endshake. Keep an eye on the roller table, fork and  impulse jewel to engage correctly. 

If and when the cause of the issue is found, it should be fixed accordingly.

 

[RichardHarris123]

11 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Richard are you suspecting bent pivot on the fork? 

Frankly, pallets look a bit misaligned too, repivotted, has had a hard life.

Yes, I've found that watches can run remarkably well in one position with broken pivots and not run at all in other positions. 

Aren't pallet jewels usually bevelled on the ends? 

[mikepilk]

What does the pivot on the top of the balance staff look like ?

[Nucejoe]

On 2/27/2023 at 7:32 PM, Petersas said:

Pallet jewel needs adjusting 

Or could be roller-table is to high .

Lets expand this a bit, the roller-table might be so high that impluse jewel passes over it, EVEN AFTER BALANCE END SHAKE IS MINIMIZED.  I would first adjust all  end shakes and see what else has the preveous watch destroyer has done.

[GregG]

5 hours ago, mikepilk said:

What does the pivot on the top of the balance staff look like ?

The top of the balance actually looks fine.  It's tough to see it between the coils of the hairspring, but the narrow point of the balance staff appears to be intact.

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Lets expand this a bit, the roller-table might be so high that impluse jewel passes over it, EVEN AFTER BALANCE END SHAKE IS MINIMIZED.  I would first adjust all  end shakes and see what else has the preveous watch destroyer has done.

I will try the aluminum foil method today and report my findings.

[GregG]

UPDATE: So far, aluminum foil method working perfectly.  It's been running for a few hours nonstop in the dial-up position.

[Klassiker]

Did you adjust the end-shake on the pallet fork as well?

[GregG]

9 hours ago, Klassiker said:

Did you adjust the end-shake on the pallet fork as well?

No.  I didn't know how to do it for the pallet.  I understand for the balance that shimming up one side would push the other side down.  But either way it's been running no problems, so if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Klassiker]

3 hours ago, GregG said:

I didn't know how to do it for the pallet

You would do it according to the same principle used for the balance, i.e. a piece of foil under the pallet cock, behind the screw, to tilt the jeweled end down slightly. As Nucejoe explained, the shimming is how you make reversible adjustments for diagnostic purposes. The permanent fix will be different.

[GregG]

22 minutes ago, Klassiker said:

You would do it according to the same principle used for the balance, i.e. a piece of foil under the pallet cock, behind the screw, to tilt the jeweled end down slightly. As Nucejoe explained, the shimming is how you make reversible adjustments for diagnostic purposes. The permanent fix will be different.

In retrospect, when you say that, it was stupid of me to say I wasn't sure how to do it haha.  

I last left it running dial up last night.  But if I come home today and it's still running, I am going to call it good enough.  I will continue to monitor it for a few days.  If it runs in all positions, I don't want to start fussing with what now works.

[Nucejoe]

4 minutes ago, GregG said:

 I am going to call it good enough.  I will continue to monitor it for a few days.  If it runs in all positions, I don't want to start fussing with what now works.

Good idea.

Good amplitude is the first concern now, in case its low, then  a close look at the lock on pallets is the next step. 

Rgds

[GregG]

24 hours and it's still running!

Also there are two inscriptions on it:

Souvenir of the World War, years 1914-1918

1917
Joachim Zone
Jodoigne-Souveraine
Brabant
Belgique
1917-1918

Joachim (male name) in the zone of Jodoigne-Souveraine, in the province of Brabant, in Belgium

I tried to contact the local government of Jodoigne to see if they have any records of a Joachim who would be of fighting age during WW1, but the govt website is down.