How to get mainspring to carch on the winding arbor?

[kd8tzc]

I finally got a MS winder, and I have been practicing with an old mainspring out of a Timex watch as I don't care if this gets damaged.  The one thing I can't figure out is how do I get it to catch on the little hook on the arbor?  What's the trick?

I've watched Mark's video, but it almost looks like his just hooks onto it without much effort.  Sorry, still trying to learn.

[haratua]

I could see two possible reasons why the mainspring is not catching on the winder.

1. Left vs right hand winding

2. The mainspring loop is too big

Also, it may look easy when the professionals do it because they’ve mastered the techniques. 

[kd8tzc]

I thought about the first item, and made sure that is not the issue.

Looking at your picture, I see the very tip if the mainspring is bent slightly inward... is that the way it should be as mine do not do that. 

[LittleWatchShop]

Other than what is stated already, it is possible that your mainspring winder "catch" (for lack of a better term) is worn or not extruded enough. 

Please show us a picture of the mainspring winder--close up.

[haratua]

26 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

I thought about the first item, and made sure that is not the issue.

Looking at your picture, I see the very tip if the mainspring is bent slightly inward... is that the way it should be as mine do not do that. 

You should look where it latches on under magnification on what’s actually happening. The risk of changing the shape too much for the winder is that it may be out of shape to latch on your barrel arbor.

Edited April 26, 2023 by haratua

[Nucejoe]

Springs easily break at sharp bends or when a hole is punched in them.

The right tool reduces chance of damage, more than experience does, check this for sale at Amazon.

https://www.amazon.co.jp/-/en/Jewelry-Repair-Circular-Wrought-Handmade/dp/B09K393XKY

Rgds

[Waggy]

Just remember that you can use a size 6 main-spring winding arbour inside a size 7 winder, you don't have to stick with a 7 and a 7 for example. Obviously you cant jump too many sizes or there is a chance you will not secure the spring properly and then you will be joining the Swiss Space Program! The reason you may want to go down a size on the main-spring winding arbour is that sometimes the inner loop of the spring needs to be extra small and using the matching main-spring winding arbour will be too thick and open up and permanently 'stretch' the spring inner loop making it too big to work with the watch arbour - then you are in trouble as trying to bend it back will cause it to snap 9 times out of 10. However, there is a way to properly reshape the spring but this is pretty advanced stuff:

 

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

old mainspring out of a Timex watch

old as in older watch versus modern watch with modern mainspring?

3 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

little hook on the arbor

one of the problems with modern tools are there assuming modern. For instance in the image of the tool itself notice the description is for very specific type of mainspring. The modern mainsprings have a very specific shape and are designed to work with a very specific handle. You recognize the handle as the hook does not protrude out but has been ground into the handle itself.

then as mentioned above you can swap the handles around to try to get the spring the work.

Then what about before the modern Springs well there was another set of handles which no longer seems to exist anymore. Those are recognized as the hook part sticks up is not recessed in the handle. Or I have a picture of a different type of handle  it has to protruding pins is designed to do pocket watch Springs.

The unfortunate reality with mainspring is could be that you can end up with several different sets of mainspring winders with different styles of handles and still have to have them all out and fiddle with them until you find the right combination to get the mainspring in. at least that's what I end up doing sometimes all have all the sets out. Word typically I just use the pocket watch Winder I have because typically I'm dealing with pocket watches.

so basically the videos that make the mainspring winders looks so simple and effort free is because the using the right mainspring with the right winder then everything works perfect.

 

 

 

[kd8tzc]

Yes old Timex mainspring.  I'm also now trying with the old Luch mainspring as well.

 

Edit: Okay, changed the size of the arbor winder and that seems to help.  Because the Luch mainspring has that T bridle, I got stock at the end and lost the grip on that hole in the mainspring and it is now loose.  Take 2....

Edited April 26, 2023 by kd8tzc

[LittleWatchShop]

43 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

T bridle

For T bridle and T slot in the barrel, I wind them by hand.

[kd8tzc]

5 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I wind them by hand.

I thought that damages the mainspring?

[LittleWatchShop]

6 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

I thought that damages the mainspring?

Some say this.  Damaging, meaning that it will no longer be planar.  I do not contest this, but I question whether a small amount of non-planarity is a real problem.  For a Timex, I would certainly say, NO.  For a Patek, yeah, OK, maybe a second a month--dunno.  As an engineer (and an AMATEUR watchmaker), I consider the entire error budget of the drive train and oscillator.  My SWAG is that a non-planer mainspring is in the noise.

I have installed a T-slot mainspring with a winder.  It is truly challenging.  I wind them by hand.

AGAIN...I AM AN AMATEUR...take what I say with a grain of salt.

[kd8tzc]

Okay, I am an amateur as well, so I am okay with that.  Do you have a good video of how to do it?  I have looked and most that I have found don't do a good job of showing how to start it (which is where I struggle as the mainspring curves the other way).

[LittleWatchShop]

4 minutes ago, kd8tzc said:

Okay, I am an amateur as well, so I am okay with that.  Do you have a good video of how to do it?  I have looked and most that I have found don't do a good job of showing how to start it (which is where I struggle as the mainspring curves the other way).

I will look and see if I have one and take a video.

You just have to push the back curve into the barrel wall and then drag the T into the slot.  At that point, I put my thumb over it to hold it in place and then start rotating and winding.

[haratua]

2 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I will look and see if I have one and take a video.

You just have to push the back curve into the barrel wall and then drag the T into the slot.  At that point, I put my thumb over it to hold it in place and then start rotating and winding.

To wind it into the barrel by hand start from the wall, and slowly with two thumbs slide it inside bit by bit, almost like the reverse motion of how you take it out from the barrel by hand. 

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

Because the Luch mainspring has that T bridle

by the way were dealing with two separate problems here catching on the winder handle and catching on the other end in the barrel two separate problems

3 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

I thought that damages the mainspring?

it depends upon who you ask one of the theories is that when you remove a mainspring from a barrel and its cone shaped that distortion was caused by somebody hand winding a spring in. But I was at a lecture once were someone commented that even mainspring winders can damage mainsprings. I think the basic suggestion was you have limited quantity of tries to get the mainspring into the barrel either way and you can cause damage beyond a certain point if you're not careful.

3 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I have installed a T-slot mainspring with a winder.  It is truly challenging.  I wind them by hand.

I don't understand why it's challenging? Any time you have an end that protrudes into the barrel and/or led and you're using a Winder it's easy. All you have to do is wind it into the wind or leave a tiny bit how it insert the tiny bit and the winder into the barrel rotated until typically a T it's above whatever it's supposed to be then you do have to push it in soon actually is where it's supposed to be. Then using the back end your tweezers are the biggest screwdriver you have the is hold it down the T part push the spring out in your good to go. I think 99% of my mainsprings have T ends in this works perfect. Almost perfect occasionally mainsprings get wound in by hand for a variety reasons. This is watch repair there is no one single perfect tool that works for everything which explains why we have so many tools. Or at least that's one of the reasons that explains why we have so many tools.

[LittleWatchShop]

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I don't understand why it's challenging?

You have done more than I, so I defer...but for my K&D winders, you are blind when you insert the wound MS into the barrel.  Maybe pressing the MS beyond the fingers of the winder just slightly so that the T is exposed in a way that it will catch the slot. 

We have discusses this before, you and I...somewhere on this forum I believe.

[haratua]

I do believe "challenging" is subjective and relative. Since this question was posted on "Safe Zone" section for people new to watch repair, I think "challenging" is totally acceptable. Everything is challenging until it is no longer challenging. As one says, "Amateurs practice until they get it right, experts practice until the can't get it wrong."

 

[JohnR725]

11 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

but for my K&D winders, you are blind when you insert the wound MS into the barrel.  Maybe pressing the MS beyond the fingers of the winder just slightly so that the T is exposed in a way that it will catch the slot. 

it doesn't really matter which of the winders you use if it has something like a T you leave a little bit sticking out so you can get it where it's supposed to be. Then use make sure it's pushed down so that is in and you hold it down so it stays in then you can push the spring out of your winder.

4 minutes ago, haratua said:

As one says, "Amateurs practice until they get it right, experts practice until the can't get it wrong."

personally what I like to say is everybody practices forever. There is always a challenge to be found in something or another thing I suggest is that there are no true experts. There are some better than others but everybody is still practicing.

[LittleWatchShop]

[Waggy]

I always wondered if there was a way to get a T type spring into the barrel and aligned with its' cut-out slot with mainspring winders and also always hand wound, but always felt a little guilty doing it like I was cheating - glad to see that I was doing the right thing all along!

[JohnR725]

24 minutes ago, Waggy said:

I always wondered if there was a way to get a T type spring into the barrel and aligned with its' cut-out slot with mainspring winders

 I wonder if it would help if I gave you pictures? If I'm lucky I may be seeing mainsprings come in tomorrow all of them are some form of the T. All of them will go in with mainspring winders. so maybe some pictures would help?

[Waggy]

Would be good to see and learn, thanks

[rossjackson01]

I can wind by hand. However I seem to expand the centre of the spring so that the cut-out does not connect with the arbour. I am indeed careful on cleaning that I do not touch the centre, but it nearly always seem to happen. Also makes it awkward using the mainspring winders. Infuriating.

The more you learn, there is another obstacle waiting. 

Problems with types and sizing of crowns now.

Edited April 27, 2023 by rossjackson01
spelling

[HectorLooi]

I've always resorted to winding "T" mainspring by hand. @JohnR725 has advised leaving a short tail sticking out of the winder's barrel and fitting the "T" into the slot on the floor of the barrel and holding it down while pressing the mainspring into the barrel.

I've tried that many times but each time, it jumps out of the slot.