Stain/tarnish removal

[arron]

Good morning,

I'm working on an elgin PW 15 j, size 16.  I've run it through my watch cleaning machine with Zenith cleaner (no ammonia) and also in naptha in my US.  Still, the tarnish/staining will not come off.  I tried scraping with pegwood without good results.    Is there something else i should try?  Machine buffing?  Ammonia?  Vinegar?  Any ideas appreciated.  Thank you.  Arron.

[MrRoundel]

It looks like the movement may have been left in a cleaner for too long in its life. Either that, or perhaps a cleaner that was too caustic? However, if it is tarnish rather than loss of plating, you might try rubbing the dark areas with Rodico. I had black discoloration on a Swiss pocket watch movement with a gilt finish, and the Rodico removed it with a bit of elbow grease. Good luck.

 

 

[arron]

I have to admit that when i read your reply i was skeptical, to say the least, that a piece of putty could remove what two machines and harsh chemicals could not.  But, alas, it did work.  I went ahead and tried a pink pencil eraser and that worked too.  Go figure.  It's not bright and shiny but it did remove the tarnish.  Thanks for that great idea.

[JohnR725]

On 5/26/2023 at 11:52 AM, MrRoundel said:

It looks like the movement may have been left in a cleaner for too long in its life. Either that, or perhaps a cleaner that was too caustic? However

I noticing you using a cleaning product without ammonia. Ammonia is an interesting substance and watch cleaning. A short time in the ultrasonic with ammonia and everything comes out bright and shiny. It's the ammonia that removes the tarnish so if you had a ammonia-based cleaner that would probably be bright and shiny. But if left too long in the cleaner with ammonia it goes from bright and shiny to etching basically. This solution will turn a pretty blue color and the copper in the brass will be gone and things will be frosty. then as you leave it a very long time basically an unacceptably long time and then you'll start to see some really bad effects apparently. No matter what that's an interesting work on your plates.

 

On 5/28/2023 at 10:13 AM, arron said:

I went ahead and tried a pink pencil eraser and that worked too.

then a pinky eraser is actually a abrasive device not as abrasive as sandpaper but still it's abrasive. That's why you're finding a clean but not bright and shiny because of its abrasive properties.

then there's an alternative. I would have posted this sooner but I couldn't quite remember what it was called and trying to figure out by searching alternative names reveals well doesn't reveal this. So you looking for an ionic cleaner this seems be the most common one I see there's other videos on YouTube but you can get the idea from this video. so basing that just works really nice on tarnish. Here watch plates or somebody once their case to look nice but doesn't want a polished it works fine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nickelsilver]

For this kind of tarnish on nickel plated and gold plated movement (or any kind), I learned long ago to use blanc d'Espagne, also known as blanc de Moudon, or in English sometimes White of Spain, or just whiting powder. It's super finely ground calcium carbonate, and is used for all kinds of stuff like making gesso, or whitewashing windows and so forth- and is the main ingredient in most chalk*. Available here from drugstores/ art supply/ hardware stores. Should be fairly easy to find about anywhere.

 

To clean up plates and bridges, take a pinch and rub it wet (with water) all over the stained area. It won't leave scratches or mess up the original finish, but does a great job of getting those stains off.

 

*French chalk is magnesium silicate. Very old watchmaking books mention it often, and many old benches had a cubby hole right in the front for a block of chalk, which you were to rub a long bristle brush over, then brush down the plates and bridges. I think the idea was to brighten things up. So, while I haven't tried it, you might try French chalk as well. It's what talcum powder is made from, so that's an easy source of powder form.

Edited May 30, 2023 by nickelsilver

[arron]

I appreciate knowing about these techniques.  It's always good to have some extra arrows in the quiver when i need them.  I already have ammonia, so i might try that for now.  

[JohnR725]

5 minutes ago, arron said:

I already have ammonia,

just to clarify I assume you mean ammonia in a watch cleaning product? As I know you can do by ammonia in various stores for general household cleaning for which I have zero experience on a watch with that. Then if you using an ammonia-based cleaner designed for watch repair somewhere in 4 to 5 minutes works fine anything longer and you have issues or can have issues. Plus do not elevate the temperature.

[arron]

I appreciate the clarification.  I was actually thinking about a diluted mixture of ammonia and water for a short US bath.  i decided against buying the Zenith with ammonia for fear it would stink up the house too much.  i do have a junker plate i could test it on.  i'll also do some more research to see if anyone out there has tried ammonia outside of a watch cleaning product.

[JohnR725]

3 minutes ago, arron said:

Zenith with ammonia for fear it would stink up the house too much

I don't know anything about their ammonia-based cleaner as to how much it smells. I do know their people super sensitive. Then of course they make modern extremely expensive cleaning machines where this is not an issue as you can have activated carbon to filter out that. You can run these machines in a store for instance and nobody has any idea what you're running in the machine. But that excludes us. I just don't remember the ammonia-based cleaners for watches at least as being an issue. Because typically it there in sealed containers except when I was cleaning and I cleaned in another room of the house so I just don't remember it being an issue. But I do know people have complained about the smell of the ammonia that others have complained about basically the solvents they can smell those also.

Then definitely experiments we all need experiments I like when people do experiments just don't do it on anything good.

Then ammonia in water is common in clock solutions. Now this is where I will complain about the ammonia I have a gallon of the l&r clock solution I believe he makes it one part eight and at least initially I made a whole bunch of mistakes with it. First never open it up in a confined space make sure outside with a breeze ideally should wear a respirator because it's a concentrated solution and yes that I remember how bad it smells.

Then using tap water was a very bad idea. Oh with the bonus of I used hot tap water. The problem with water out of your tap is whatever chemical properties that could range from extremely alkaline to I have no idea what but usually it has added bonus of oxygen mixed in.

Even though I mixed it at the proper concentration the elevated temperature frosted all the brass clock plates which required polishing. The super clean because the ammonia-based clock cleaner can do a beautiful job of cleaning off every trace of oil that's a problem for iron components. In that there now in a hot solution with oxygen mixed into the water and what exactly is rust made out of anyway? Never mind I would he know the answer to that question.

Oh the other thing to try is the one Tarnish removing solutions for silver stuff and jewelry. I forgot about that I used use that for silver things before I discovered the ionic cleaner at work. They just have these one dip solutions read just dip something in and that used to do a really nice job. Often times stuff like that's even available in your local grocery store at least that's the fuzzy memory of where he might've purchased mine. But that was such a long time ago so that is another option

even if you didn't dip into the solution you can put it on a cotton swab and rub it on the tarnished parts. Just make sure you clean it off afterwards.

So experimentation is in your destiny let us know the results.