Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted

Hi team. Probably a numpty question. So far my capstone cleaning started off with IPA soaks, moved on to IPA in ultrasound before arriving at my current endpoint which is purely mechanical cleaning. I place the capstone onto the surface of a Bergeon 12mm leather strop and then trap it from above with a second 6mm Bergeon leather strop. With gentle pressure rub the 2 surfaces together  for a few seconds. Microscopic examination reveals the flat capstone surface to be clear of crap (sorry to use medical terminology) and very shiny . Question is , is mechanical cleaning enough or should I really be doing both. I haven't been doing this long enough yet to know what medium or long term implications my method has, so any sage advice would be welcome. The reason I moved away from IPA was 1. When used alone the capstone surface was almost always still covered in muck 2. When used with US, it didn't look any better and 3. The only times I've lost capstones is when I've been using IPA (although this is likely crap technique).

Posted

Both chemical and mechanical and simultaneously.

I use cardborad instead of leather and spread some lighter fluid on the cardboard " trap " the capstone with my thumb and rub.

Once the stone surface shines, I give it a rinse as  tiny bits of cardboard/ leather are inevitably  aggreagated around the circumference of capstone. 

Even IPA leaves little residue on the capstone which wont bother the new lubricants.

  • Like 1
Posted
1 hour ago, DrHWO said:

Hi team. Probably a numpty question. So far my capstone cleaning started off with IPA soaks, moved on to IPA in ultrasound before arriving at my current endpoint which is purely mechanical cleaning. I place the capstone onto the surface of a Bergeon 12mm leather strop and then trap it from above with a second 6mm Bergeon leather strop. With gentle pressure rub the 2 surfaces together  for a few seconds. Microscopic examination reveals the flat capstone surface to be clear of crap (sorry to use medical terminology) and very shiny . Question is , is mechanical cleaning enough or should I really be doing both. I haven't been doing this long enough yet to know what medium or long term implications my method has, so any sage advice would be welcome. The reason I moved away from IPA was 1. When used alone the capstone surface was almost always still covered in muck 2. When used with US, it didn't look any better and 3. The only times I've lost capstones is when I've been using IPA (although this is likely crap technique).

I've been using almost from my start a similar method. I didnt like the ipa clean at all and the risk of handling wet cap stones is too high. I started by rubbing the flat side on watchpaper but that crinkles up too much so i just rub the flat side dry on a sticky note pad. I also just use my finger on the stone to rub then pick the stone off my pinky with tweezers. With complete confidence in this method i never lose a stone and it cleans it perfectly.

  • Like 2
Posted
1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

i just rub the flat side dry on a sticky note pad.

I use this exact same post-it-note method! I first steep in naphtha for about 5 mins to loosen any gunk, then with the flat surface of the jewel facing down against the paper I rub with my finger so that the flat surface is rubbing on the post-it-note paper to physically remove any gunk, then I let it fall off my finger into my container of naphtha another quick 5 min dip to remove anything my fingers or paper could have introduced. Now I let it dry with the flat surface up ready for oil.

Currently I oil first with a regular oiler and then put on the chateau (spelling??) but I'm now considering changing this and applying the chateau dry first and then oiling with an auto oiler... any thoughts?

  • Like 1
Posted
55 minutes ago, Waggy said:

I use this exact same post-it-note method! I first steep in naphtha for about 5 mins to loosen any gunk, then with the flat surface of the jewel facing down against the paper I rub with my finger so that the flat surface is rubbing on the post-it-note paper to physically remove any gunk, then I let it fall off my finger into my container of naphtha another quick 5 min dip to remove anything my fingers or paper could have introduced. Now I let it dry with the flat surface up ready for oil.

Currently I oil first with a regular oiler and then put on the chateau (spelling??) but I'm now considering changing this and applying the chateau dry first and then oiling with an auto oiler... any thoughts?

I like to apply lube with a manual oiler i can then see exactly how good a job i have made. Jewel flat side up and held so the oiler doesn't lift it up . And that would be the chaton placed on top, the oil grabs the cap jewel and both parts can be turned over and placed into the setting easily. 

  • Like 2
Posted

I use old contact lens cases - two compartments so I can keep top and bottom jewels separate. I use a drop of Elma WF Pro or naphtha, and 5 mins in the ultrasonic. Then IPA rinse.
If not spotless, I dip in IPA and rub them on some watch tissue using a lolly stick with a bit of leather glued on - buggr spending £££ on  Bergeon stuff 🤣 

  • Like 1
Posted
13 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I use old contact lens cases - two compartments so I can keep top and bottom jewels separate. I use a drop of Elma WF Pro or naphtha, and 5 mins in the ultrasonic. Then IPA rinse.
If not spotless, I dip in IPA and rub them on some watch tissue using a lolly stick with a bit of leather glued on - buggr spending £££ on  Bergeon stuff 🤣 

Contact lens cases sounds like a safer solution. Do Bergeon make lollies? The last lolly I ate was a Mivvi, so that'll give you an idea of how temporally impaired I am! 

  • Haha 1
Posted
13 hours ago, mikepilk said:

buggr spending £££ on  Bergeon stuff 🤣 

Especially seeing as the Brrgeon stuff is just perc (Tetrachloroethylenel) which you can buy litres of for next to nothing.

Posted
15 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

.......the oil grabs the cap jewel ...... 

Ah, capillary attraction can be useful then. So far it's been my enemy (separating the capstone from the chaton). Rodico and colourful expletives is my preferred method, although I have tried repurposing the fine tip from an auto oiler. Gave up on that after the tip snapped off and my usual expletives just didn't satisfy.😪

Posted
39 minutes ago, DrHWO said:

separating the capstone from the chaton

To be honest I have rarely come across this, but I use naphtha and not IPA to clean the cap jewels, so maybe this is why? When I drop it in the naphtha they separate almost on contact.

  • Like 1
Posted
44 minutes ago, DrHWO said:

Ah, capillary attraction can be useful then. So far it's been my enemy (separating the capstone from the chaton). Rodico and colourful expletives is my preferred method, although I have tried repurposing the fine tip from an auto oiler. Gave up on that after the tip snapped off and my usual expletives just didn't satisfy.😪

A few seconds in the ultrasonic and they always separate 

  • Like 1
Posted

The cap jewels go into my cleaning machine (70-year-old ELMA w/o US) and usually come out visually clean. Even so, I always clean the cap jewels manually using the method shown in the below video. However, these days I also place a few drops of IPA in the centre of the watch tissue paper and then once I've cleaned the cap jewel in the IPA-soaked section of the paper I drag it out to the dry section of the paper to get rid of any IPA residue. I'm very satisfied with this method.

 

  • Like 3
Posted
1 hour ago, DrHWO said:

Contact lens cases sounds like a safer solution. Do Bergeon make lollies? The last lolly I ate was a Mivvi, so that'll give you an idea of how temporally impaired I am! 

Haha an original Lyons Maid Mivvi in its 70s heyday. 👍

1 hour ago, DrHWO said:

Ah, capillary attraction can be useful then. So far it's been my enemy (separating the capstone from the chaton). Rodico and colourful expletives is my preferred method, although I have tried repurposing the fine tip from an auto oiler. Gave up on that after the tip snapped off and my usual expletives just didn't satisfy.😪

It has its uses Doc when the lube is fluid. Both chucked in few drops of your chosen dissolver will sort out their years of mating. 

15 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

The cap jewels go into my cleaning machine (70-year-old ELMA w/o US) and usually come out visually clean. Even so, I always clean the cap jewels manually using the method shown in the below video. However, these days I also place a few drops of IPA in the centre of the watch tissue paper and then once I've cleaned the cap jewel in the IPA-soaked section of the paper I drag it out to the dry section of the paper to get rid of any IPA residue. I'm very satisfied with this method.

 

I tried this some time back when i started but couldn't get to grips with it. The paper would crinkle up and move around so had to be taped down as you've shown. And most times the jewel would flip out from under the pegwood if i wasn't careful. The sticky note pad works great ( i figured paper is paper and watch paper is so ridiculously light and unpredictable the culprit of lost jewels and springs I'm sure ) tear the top page off and away you go with a fresh clean page. And using my finger ontop of the jewel it cant escape to anywhere, i do find it best to use a bare finger as it slides better on the paper. A quick wipe with alcohol first to clean the finger pad and if I'm in a belt and braces mood i dot the cap with rodico before i insert the shock spring. You can always wear a cot if you prefer ( i hate wearing them and have taught myself to use them in a minimal way) if you have confidence while using any method then i think that plays a major roll in avoiding mishaps. 

  • Like 2
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

And most times the jewel would flip out from under the pegwood if i wasn't careful.

It could be that you didn't hold the piece of peg wood perfectly perpendicular to the cap jewel and perhaps in combination with pressing too hard on the jewel. Same principle with screwdrivers. If not held (near) perfectly perpendicular to the screw head the blade can slip, especially if not properly dressed.

Edited by VWatchie
  • Like 2
Posted
30 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

It could be that you didn't hold the piece of peg wood perfectly perpendicular to the cap jewel and perhaps in combination with pressing too hard on the jewel. Same principle with screwdrivers. If not held (near) perfectly perpendicular to the screw head the blade can slip, especially if not properly dressed.

I'm very sure you are right watchie, when i wasn't being careful enough the jewel could escape. This was just a case of finding something that worked better for me. Its something that I've always strived for in my day job for over 30 years , time is money for me and that habit never leaves you. This way made me a bit quicker and a bit safer, the pegwood didn't give me the same confidence, maybe i could have made the hollow a bit deeper which may have improved the slip but i didn't persist with refining that method. I just tried something else straight away and liked it better.

  • Like 2
Posted
8 hours ago, VWatchie said:

 I always clean the cap jewels manually using the method shown in the below video..........

 

I'm going to have to give this a try. Thank you for the amazingly detailed advice. I suspect you need a light touch when applying the downwards pressure and a good sense of vertical to avoid Pingu, so I need to practice (a lot!)

27 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

........ When you press down the jewel gets embedded in the leather and you can't lose it.........

For my hamfisted self, thats one of the advantages that attracted me. It was pretty much downwards pressure independent, allowing me to eat the Mivvi with my other hand!

  • Like 1
Posted
58 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

It's easy @Neverenoughwatches, glue a bit of soft leather/suede to a lolly stick (best not use 'Zoom' or 'Orbit' sticks 🤣). When you press down the jewel gets embedded in the leather and you can't lose it. 

👍a bit chamois glued to a dowel stick could work well. At the moment I'm happy with my built in leather grip pad 🙂

43 minutes ago, DrHWO said:

I suspect you need a light touch when applying the downwards pressure and a good sense of vertical to avoid Pingu, so I need to practice (a lot!)

Thats what drew me away from that method. You are tempted to press down firm to buff the jewel up. Using a finger you barely need to consider anything. Try both ways and see how you feel about them. The only draw back i can think of is any transfer from finger to jewel, but it is mostly the top of the jewel possibly the side that may receive contamination if any. A quick wipe of your finger pad should eliminate this ( or wear a finger cot 🤔leather finger cot now theres an idea ) and you can always touch up with rodico or a toothpick condom before insertnng the shock spring. 

Posted
26 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Using a finger you barely need to consider anything..................

........Unless you are an inveterate nose picker, like me. I'm going to have dreams now about the possibility of synthetic rubies traversing the cribriform plate and into my frontal lobes. Might make me more decisive or even know WTF a toothpick condom is!

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Posted
1 hour ago, DrHWO said:

........Unless you are an inveterate nose picker, like me. I'm going to have dreams now about the possibility of synthetic rubies traversing the cribriform plate and into my frontal lobes. Might make me more decisive or even know WTF a toothpick condom is!

Doc you just need to refrain from the habit for a few minutes until you know the jewel is safe in the watch tucked up in bed. Ahh the good old toothpick condom,  not you may wonder have anything to do with a very virile after dinner wooden probing implement. Nor something purchased in the chemist department of tescos by a large car compensated dude. It is in fact a swiss watchmakers alternative answer to rodico given to us by the Nicklesilver one namely named by my goodself as the toothpick condom. It consists very simply of a toothpick dipped in contact adhesive ( something tells me you have a tin kicking around my good partner in wood crime ) . Not sure what the swiss use but i liked the idea of Evostick C.A. so i stuck with the sticky stuff. 👍

Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The sticky note pad works great ( i figured paper is paper and watch paper is so ridiculously light and unpredictable the culprit of lost jewels and springs I'm sure ) tear the top page off and away you go with a fresh clean page.

That sure sounds a lot more convenient and efficient. However, don't know if you saw my video to the end where I mention I also tried my method with printing paper. The problem with printing paper IMO is that it is too rough. When looking at the flat side of the cap jewel under 40x magnification I could clearly see the surface had been scratched by the printing paper. Not much, maybe even acceptable, but still.

ChristianLassCleaningACapJewel.jpg.85dea1141d02271293ffcf464cb6307d.jpg
Christian Lass cleaning a cap jewel using a piece of peg wood shaped like a screwdriver blade 😱

I say "IMO", because Christan Lass (Former Master watchmaker of the Patek Philippe Museum in Geneva) shows a similar method in one of his video tutorials (Watchmaking 101, Beginner Course) but is using common printing paper. I guess it could be that we only need to apply very little pressure on the stone. Thinking a bit more about it, it makes sense that printing paper is designed like emery paper. The roughness is there to scrape off enough black lead from the pencil for easy writing. Anyway, perhaps a sticky note pad + a light hand (whatever method) is the way to go!?

 

Edited by VWatchie
  • Like 2
Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

That sure sounds a lot more convenient and efficient. However, don't know if you saw my video to the end where I mention I also tried my method with printing paper. The problem with printing paper IMO is that it is too rough. When looking at the flat side of the cap jewel under 40x magnification I could clearly see the surface had been scratched by the printing paper. Not much, maybe even acceptable, but still.

ChristianLassCleaningACapJewel.jpg.85dea1141d02271293ffcf464cb6307d.jpg
Christian Lass cleaning a cap jewel using a piece of peg wood shaped like a screwdriver blade

I say "IMO", because Christan Lass (Former Master watchmaker of the Patek Philippe Museum in Geneva) shows a similar method in one of his video tutorials (Watchmaking 101, Beginner Course) but is using common printing paper. I guess it could be that we only need to apply very little pressure on the stone. Thinking a bit more about it, it makes sense that printing paper is designed like emery paper. The roughness is there to scrape off enough black lead from the pencil for easy writing. Anyway, perhaps a sticky note pad + a light hand (whatever method) is the way to go!?

 

I will have to have a look at that watchie, the jewel looks spotless afterwards and i cant say I've noticed scratches but i haven't tried looking for damage at x40 afterwards I  would be amazed to find that paper would be higher on the mohs scale than synthetic ruby which if i remember is around 8 or 9 . I wouldn't know the process of paper making only that my limited knowledge tells me its made from trees, so thats two things i need to look into now. 😉. Just to add, it does look like someone is about to play tiddlywinks with cap jewels, i bet i could make a fun game with this.

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
Posted

 What is wrong with pressing down on capstone with finger any reason why you use a toothpic or hollow wooden stick etc,  you are going to rinse the stone after pegging anyway.

Posted
3 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

 What is wrong with pressing down on capstone with finger any reason why you use a toothpic or hollow wooden stick etc,  you are going to rinse the stone after pegging anyway.

I just found using my finger a very simple method and really safe. 

  • Thanks 1
Posted
57 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

That sure sounds a lot more convenient and efficient. However, don't know if you saw my video to the end where I mention I also tried my method with printing paper. The problem with printing paper IMO is that it is too rough. When looking at the flat side of the cap jewel under 40x magnification I could clearly see the surface had been scratched by the printing paper. Not much, maybe even acceptable, but still.

ChristianLassCleaningACapJewel.jpg.85dea1141d02271293ffcf464cb6307d.jpg
Christian Lass cleaning a cap jewel using a piece of peg wood shaped like a screwdriver blade 😱

I say "IMO", because Christan Lass (Former Master watchmaker of the Patek Philippe Museum in Geneva) shows a similar method in one of his video tutorials (Watchmaking 101, Beginner Course) but is using common printing paper. I guess it could be that we only need to apply very little pressure on the stone. Thinking a bit more about it, it makes sense that printing paper is designed like emery paper. The roughness is there to scrape off enough black lead from the pencil for easy writing. Anyway, perhaps a sticky note pad + a light hand (whatever method) is the way to go!?

 

If I could hire someone you da guy.

Christian took over at V. Halter when I left and that kid knows his stuff. Ended up at Patek doing restoration and now his own watches. Clever, clever watchmaker 

  • Like 1

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Typically watch manufacturing companies will purchase parts to their exact specifications including the jewels. This means that typically you may not find an exact generic replacement. I'm attaching a PDF of a book that explains how to replace jewels. Seitz book.pdf
    • Hey everyone! I sure this topic has probably been discussed before, but I want some good recommendations based on experience or knowledge about a good affordable high torque DC motor that I can use for my lathe. I have a little lathe but it has the regular old style motor that was used in the past with a foot controller. However, I would like to improve it by buy a nice motor with a speed controller so I don’t have to use my foot. I would like the motor to have really good torque so that even if I run it at a very low speed, it still can cut material easily. I saw online this brand called Servo sewing machine motor with a speed controller, but I don’t know how good they are and if they would work like I would like to for my lathe. Thank you for all the help!
    • Your only partially correct here. Let's look at a magnified view of the image up above. Then for a flat hairspring to function correctly there has to be a little bit of breathing room unfortunately. If you would like Better timekeeping if you get a watch with the over coil hairspring then those regulator pins are supposed to be as tight as possible but still allow the hairspring the slide. With if the pins are opened up at all you'll see a dramatic timing change based on amplitude. So in our example down below initially hairspring is basically free-floating not touching anything the effective length of the hairspring is at the stud. As the amplitude picks up at some point in time they hairspring will just tide should one pin on one swing and the other pin on the other swing. As soon as it does that it changes the effective length to being closer to the regulator pins. As the amplitude picks up more and more it's obviously touching the regulator pins more and more and the length of the hairspring shortens the watch speeds up. This is where in your video at around 16 minutes he opens up the regulator pins and the watch slows down. This is because they hairspring is no longer bouncing off either pin as much. Then because the watches running slow he speeds it up just to show that yes you could regulate the watch but now you have a problem. Because the regulator pins are much farther apart amplitude is going to have a much greater effect. Like in the image down below they hairspring is properly spaced between the pins. But if those pins are farther apart the effect of amplitude will be much greater. So he speeds up the watch to cancel out the effect of the regulator pins at the particular amplitude which was dial down then when he moves the watch to a crown position which will always have an amplitude decrease because the amount of friction on the sides of the pins now the hairspring is not touching the regulator pins as much and the watch dramatically slows down.   Let's look at the other example image. In this particular example they hairspring is actually touching the regulator pin at restWhich means the effective length of the hairspring is at the regulator pin the watch runs fast. As the amplitude picks up hairspring will lift off the PN moving the effective length towards the stud which is why the watches slowing down. As you can see is the amplitude picks up They hairspring is not centered C not getting even timekeeping and the watch is slowing even more down. But at some point in time when the amplitude gets high enough this will depend upon the watch the spacing Excedrin whatever the amplitude is will be balancing actually between the pins in the watch will of course speed up and then at some point time you reach that sweet spot where it's bouncing between the two pins but as you can see it's at a much higher amplitude. So this is why hairspring has to be properly centered between the pins and the pins have to be at the right spacing otherwise you going to get strange timekeeping based on amplitude which no matter what you're going to get a little bit of that as you do have to have a little bit a spacing. At least on a flat hairspring.  
    • My understanding is that In the Etachron system the spring is only centered n order to set the stud angle when the the pins are wide open and the regulator block in at the midway point.  After that the pins are rotated in one direction only so that the width between the spring and one of the studs is 1/2 width of the spring. This results in the spring always being closer to one stud than other one.   
    • The idea is that the spring is centred between the pins when at rest. Then when the watch is running it will oscillate equally between the pins i.e. bounce off one pin then the other, as the hairspring breathes. If the spring is only hitting one pin, then it isn't centred, and most likely the pins are too far apart. Yes, the regulator pins are there to adjust the effective length of the hairspring. The spacing of the regulator pins should not affect the amplitude.  The vertical positions typically have lower amplitude than the horizontal ones. This has nothing to with the regulator - hairspring interaction. Increased friction in the verticals sucks energy from the system and reduces the amplitude. If the amplitude is less, the breathing is less. More tim between the pins = more effective length. Depending on how well the hairspring is centred, and which direction it sags, some vertical positions might run faster than the horizontal ones, and others slower. For example, if the spring is off centre towards on pin, and pressed against it by gravity, it might never bounce off that pin => faster. At the position 180 deg. away, the spring will spend more time in between the pins => slower.
×
×
  • Create New...