Timegrapher

[Murks]

Can someone help a don't understand my reading on my timegrapher and where the fault is?

[Waggy]

Not 100% sure what you are asking, but below is how I would interpret it

Rate = +189: this means that the watch will be about 3 mins fast per day, ideally you should aim to get this down to single digits by moving the balance arm making the spring longer. When the rate is too fast the lines on the graph slope up, too slow and the slope down and are horizontal with no error

Amplitude = 166° : this means that your spring is delivering power at a low efficiency, ideally this should be greater than 200, and even better as you get closer to 300. The low efficiency could be due to a poor spring or friction in the gear train or dirt or...... This reading would indicate to me that the movement needs a good clean and lubrication as a starting point, then if still below par you can start to troubleshoot other problems

Beat Error = 1.9ms indicates that the balance jewel is out of alignment with the centre position of the pallet fork. On some balances you can adjust this by moving the second (lower) arm. You should be aiming for less than 0.5ms, and a good value is under 0.3ms. The distance between the parallel lines you see on the graph represents the 1.9ms error (in your case) when the error is reduced the lines get closer together, until they completely overlap at 0ms and look like a single line.

The lines look a little wavy which could be down to a few things, but aren't too bad so I wouldn't be overly concerned. A crazy mass of dots (not in your case) usually indicates that your moment and specifically the balance spring may be magnetised, a quick fix if you have a demagnetising tool.

Hope this helps.

 

[rossjackson01]

Murks

Been there, done it. Usually mine is a snow effect without lines.

You don't state your watch. Look up, if you can, to see the relevant lift angle. Many watches are different. This may effect your readings.

 

Waggy's comment is an excellent extra

"The lines look a little wavy which could be down to a few things, but aren't too bad so I wouldn't be overly concerned. A crazy mass of dots (not in your case) usually indicates that your moment and specifically the balance spring may be magnetised, a quick fix if you have a demagnetising tool".

I often forget to demagnetise, then have to start again.

 

I was hopeless to begin with in setting the balance for the Timegrapher. I'm getting better. Can't stress how small the movements are. 

 

Ross

 

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by rossjackson01
Spelling, Grammar

[Murks]

Kl what's the lift angle for lip r.25 does anyone know?

[Waggy]

8 minutes ago, rossjackson01 said:

Can't stress how small the movements are. 

@rossjackson01 I agree, sometimes just tapping the arm with peg wood moving it less than the eye can detect will change the beat error from 0.5 to 0.0 ms, and the same with the rate. Sometimes you can go back and forwards for half an hour before you hit that sweet spot, and sometimes (during an eclipse on a leap year) lady luck smiles at you and you get it first time.

Even if you need to make a big change, its best to do it in small steps. If you get too heavy handed and move the arm too much the delicate hair spring may not have time to slip to its new position and kink.... Then its game over, unless you are a black-belt hair spring ninja.... which I am not 

[rossjackson01]

19 minutes ago, Waggy said:

@rossjackson01unless you are a black-belt hair spring ninja.... which I am not 

I am, but my thumbs get in the way. Har har

 

Murks

 What are you aiming for? 0s.   300+.   0.0 is rarely achieved.  Amplitude is subjective depending on the watch.

Edited July 17, 2023 by rossjackson01

[Murks]

I'm aiming to increase my amplitude as you see on my timegraphic it is very low I want to know where to start diagnose the fault whats causing for it to be low.

The amplitude is meant to be between 270 degree or 300 as you see on my timegrapher that's not the case so a want to resolve the issue 

[Waggy]

I would start with a full disassembly, clean and lubrication, pay attention to the mainspring as any damage or kinks etc will kill the amplitude. I would also check all the pivots and jewels to make sure the pivots are not broken/bent and the jewels are not damaged (cracked/chipped). The hole in the mainspring bridge should also be checked, this often becomes worn resulting in too much play, causing the spring to tilt and bind up... See YouTube chronoglide hammer time to diagnose and fix this.

As a caveat I would advise against going for a specific number, the amplitude depends upon a number of interrelated factors and a specific gold standard may just not be possible. For example it is reasonable to expect a new good quality movement to get an amplitude around 300, but it is unreasonable to expect such a high value from a 100 year old middle-of-the-road movement. I would instead look at a before and after values to see how much improvement there was.

[JohnR725]

52 minutes ago, Murks said:

Kl what's the lift angle for lip r.25 does anyone know?

I always like to see a picture of the watch somebody's working on it answers a lot of questions that we would have. In the absence of your picture is this the watch at the link below you're working on? Then the lift angle would be close enough to 52° I wouldn't worry about it.

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&&2uswk&Lip_R25

2 hours ago, Murks said:

Can someone help a don't understand my reading on my timegrapher and where the fault is?

We really need the background history of the watch to properly diagnose the watch. Because without a background history it's basically a guess and educated guess based on parameters. Like this is what a watch would look like if it hasn't ever been serviced for instance.

13 minutes ago, Waggy said:

s a caveat I would advise against going for a specific number, the amplitude depends upon a number of interrelated factors and a specific gold standard may just not be possible. For example it is reasonable to expect a new good quality movement to get an amplitude around 300, but it is unreasonable to expect such a high value from a 100 year old middle-of-the-road movement. I would instead look at a before and after values to see how much improvement there was.

Yes on this group amplitude is an amusing problem. If you look at watch companies specifications which is typically for newer watches where they have specifications. All they really care about is don't go over 300 because that's bad. then they care about it at 24 hours and that will vary with the quality of the watch. The big thing watch companies are concerned about is timekeeping. 

Then yes it's always nice to evaluate a watch incoming to see what it looks like. Then reevaluate after it's been serviced and preferably do that when it's wound up and 24 hours later. 24 hours later is a nice test because it does show all sorts of interesting problems That can come up especially if somebody didn't do a complete servicing.